Looking for first person story: My warranty denied because of oil used

[ZeeOSix]

Perhaps, but they were referred to as "pin holes" in multiple writings...

I've been into engines for 45+ years, and have never heard the term "pin holes" used for anything expect to describe a "pin hole" leak in something. "Pin hole" is a nebulous term wrt to engine design.

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

http://www.lube-media.com/wp-conten...lsposeachallengeforsolubilityandlubricity.pdf

"Due to their greatly reduced volatility and good low-temperature performance, new base oils of API Group II-IV allow the formulation of lighter automotive viscosity grade oils,such as SAE 5W-40, 0W-30 and even 0W-20, to achieve better fuel economy. However, as explained in Figure 4, the use of thinner base oils increases the risk of engine wear unless appropriate friction modifiers are simultaneously deployed in the formulations. By shifting the Stribeck curve to the left in Figure 2, friction modifiers cause an equivalent shift of the wear and the frictional losses curves in Figure 4. The result is that the“optimal viscosity” point corresponding to the greatest fuel economy also is shifted to the left, towards lower viscosities. In practice, however, it is wise to prefer a somewhat heavier oil to a somewhat lighter one to further minimize wear."

Interesting article, but if you note the references section shows sources from 2008 or earlier (2001), I mean if a hospital published an article on things like cancer treatments in 2017 and cited info from 2008 or earlier they'd be mocked...

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

I've been into engines for 45+ years, and have never heard the term "pin holes" used for anything expect to describe a "pin hole" leak in something. "Pin hole" is a nebulous term wrt to engine design.

Okay it's "nebulous" but I've heard probably a dozen references to "pin-holes" on this forum alone...

 

[ZeeOSix]

Interesting article, but if you note the references section shows sources from 2008 or earlier (2001), I mean if a hospital published an article on things like cancer treatments in 2017 and cited info from 2008 or earlier they'd be mocked...

LoL ... Tribology and the correlation between HTHS viscosity, MOFT and wear hasn't changed. If so, let us know how it has.

Do you really believe the HTHS viscosity doesn't really matter?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Okay it's "nebulous" but I've heard probably a dozen references to "pin-holes" on this forum alone...

There is a nebulous club, that use all kinds of nebulous terms to describe things ...

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

The link to where that graph came from is in the following post.

Can't compare using oils in a NASCAR to using it in a passenger car. Race cars are desined totally different for a different purpose, and race cars use lots of oil cooling to keep the oil from thinning out and blowing up engines.

Correct, totally agree. But that is where 0W-20/30 came from and I think M1 released 0W-30 AFE in the mid-90's. (Truly exciting times for motor oil )..

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

LoL ... Tribology and the correlation between HTHS viscosity, MOFT and wear hasn't changed. If so, let us know how it has.

Do you really believe the HTHS viscosity doesn't really matter?

Okay it hasn't changed, correct. But the quality and consistency of base oils have. The 5W-20 weight has been around since the mid-1960's and was used in winter applications for GM vehicles. Granted, I would only use an SB/.SC vintage of 5W-20 to lube my door hinges! But thinner oils are not new and they serve a purpose...

 

[ZeeOSix]

Okay it hasn't changed, correct. But the quality and consistency of base oils have.

The final HTHS is what ultimately matters. Base oil might help achieve that, but in the end the HTHS is what provides the protection.

The 5W-20 weight has been around since the mid-1960's and was used in winter applications for GM vehicles. Granted, I would use an SB/.SC vintage of 5W-20 to lube my door hinges! But thinner oils are not new and they serve a purpose...

Sure they are not "new" ... and their main purpose is to obtain more fuel mileage for CAFE, but can also possibly causing some added wear - that is basically mentioned in every study or article about Tribology and the use of thinner oils. But not necessarily thin enough to "blow-up" the engine, unless someone was outright racing without an adequate oil cooler and the MOFT went to zero and caused a rod bearing to spin and throw a rod through the block, lol.

Again, the bottom line is that a thicker oil will provide more MOFT and therefore more engine wear protection. Why run on the ragged edge of MOFT when you can simply gain more wear protection by going up a grade? Of course, if some stealership is going to deny warranty because of it, then use the "recommended" and don't drive it hard.

 

[kschachn]

Okay it hasn't changed, correct. But the quality and consistency of base oils have. The 5W-20 weight has been around since the mid-1960's and was used in winter applications for GM vehicles. Granted, I would only use an SB/.SC vintage of 5W-20 to lube my door hinges! But thinner oils are not new and they serve a purpose...

That makes no difference in the context of this discussion. The MOFT is still the MOFT and it has been since the Model T and before. Nothing that you wrote above is relevant, the base oil composition is irrelevant, it contributes to other important aspects but film thickness is still due to the viscosity. Film thickness is what keeps parts separated and this is the primary method for the prevention of wear.

 

[kschachn]

Okay it's "nebulous" but I've heard probably a dozen references to "pin-holes" on this forum alone...

Can you link to any of those discussions about pin holes?

 

[Fabulous50s]

I appreciate the response.

Two follow-up questions:
1. Was the Honda dealer aware that you were using an unapproved oil?

2. If they were aware, was the reason for denial cited as use of unapproved oil or lack of oil change documentation?

1. They didn't ask me.

2. HOA denied the warranty of a piston and ring replacement due to both lack of paper trail for OCI and using an oil not approved by Honda. I don't know if we really ever differentiated between the two.

I was not even aware that I even had a warranty on the engine at the time. Honda extended the warranty on certain years due to the excessive oil consumption.

 

[kschachn]

2. HOA denied the warranty of a piston and ring replacement due to both lack of paper trail for OCI and using an oil not approved by Honda. I don't know if we really ever differentiated between the two.

The only problem here is that Honda does not approve any oil, especially not any particular grade.

 

[Fabulous50s]

Evidence?

Why are we seeing the use of lower and lower viscosity oil being used in newer vehicles? Why are we seeing lighter and lighter piston ring tension and thinner rings used? We went from cast iron and stainless valves in automatics, to aluminum and plastic valves used today.

All the same reasons, to meet CAFE. Engines do not have tighter bearing clearance then they did 40 years ago. Honestly, my 59 Ford FE has very similar clearances in almost every respect to any modern engine I've had apart/rebuilt. We have much better oils, and much better metallurgy now!

I posted pictures of the top end of my own personal vehicle after using thicker oil for 70k miles (had 140k on it when opened for repair) and the timing chain was still well within spec. I have a friend who works at the local Honda dealer and he said most K series Hondas would need a timing chain replacement at 150k.

So my evidence is like most I guess, anecdotal and only based on what I've seen and believe to be true.

We need two identical engines run on a dyno each with different oils and then do a wear analysis. One with 0w-16 and one with 5w-40. See who has the best looking bearings, cylinder walls, and what the fuel consumption is.

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

That makes no difference in the context of this discussion. The MOFT is still the MOFT and it has been since the Model T and before. Nothing that you wrote above is relevant, the base oil composition is irrelevant, it contributes to other important aspects but film thickness is still due to the viscosity. Film thickness is what keeps parts separated and this is the primary method for the prevention of wear.

Okay, so a SAE30 from 1931 is superior to a 0W-20 using PAO/GTL/severely hydrocracked? Sure. The mighty might god of MOFT!

And of course there are other factors such as a 5W-20 oil may actually start with a thicker base oil than an equivalent 5W-30 because they do not have to account for the addition of polymers to properly formulate a 5W-30, in a xW-20 oil.

Or thinner oils generate less heat...

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

Can you link to any of those discussions about pin holes?

I honestly haven't checked this time as I posted before I think the thread may have been deleted with the transfer to the new software. But I'll look tomorrow...

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

Why are we seeing the use of lower and lower viscosity oil being used in newer vehicles? Why are we seeing lighter and lighter piston ring tension and thinner rings used? We went from cast iron and stainless valves in automatics, to aluminum and plastic valves used today.

All the same reasons, to meet CAFE. Engines do not have tighter bearing clearance then they did 40 years ago. Honestly, my 59 Ford FE has very similar clearances in almost every respect to any modern engine I've had apart/rebuilt. We have much better oils, and much better metallurgy now!

I posted pictures of the top end of my own personal vehicle after using thicker oil for 70k miles (had 140k on it when opened for repair) and the timing chain was still well within spec. I have a friend who works at the local Honda dealer and he said most K series Hondas would need a timing chain replacement at 150k.

So my evidence is like most I guess, anecdotal and only based on what I've seen and believe to be true.

We need two identical engines run on a dyno each with different oils and then do a wear analysis. One with 0w-16 and one with 5w-40. See who has the best looking bearings, cylinder walls, and what the fuel consumption is.

I would love to see that study!

But bear in mind that a 0W-16 is only recommended for engines using specific coating materials and adapted for thinner oils. A 5W-40 is often a performance car oil that may not be ideal for SN+/SP ACEA A5 passenger car applications. I'm guessing a 0W-20 vs. a 5W-30 (both syn) would be a better comparison...

 

[PimTac]

And 47 years later we are still talking about CAFE.

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

And 47 years later we are still talking about CAFE.

And only in regards to 0W-16/0W-20/5W-20 when in fact both 5W-30 and 10W-30 are also both "CAFE Oils"...

 

[tiger862]

Haven't you ever read any technical links ever posted in this forum? If you don't believe that MOFT isn't a function of HTHS viscosity, you've missed some basic fundamentals of Tribology. All the info is out there, it just takes your fingers to go find it.

HTHS is HTHS, which takes into account the final oil formulation (including VIIs) at a temperature of 150C and shear rate of 1M/sec. xW-20 oils pretty much all have a lower HTHS than xW-30 oils. Almost all xW-20 oils have a HTHS viscosity of 2.6 - 2.7 cP, which is around were some engine components start showing increased rates of wear. Most xW-30 oils have a HTHS of 3.1- 3.2 cP, which give more wear protection headroom. xW-20 is too close to the ragged edge for me and the way I drive ... simple as that.

View attachment 113453

No engine runs that temp. Thermostat keeps most engines at 104C. Moot point

 

[ZeeOSix]

No engine runs that temp. Thermostat keeps most engines at 104C. Moot point

Nope ... the 150C and 1M/sec shear rate for HTHS was chosen because those can be the actual oil temperature and shear rate inside engine journal bearings. Then if say someone was running an engine really hard on a track, the sump will heat up pretty good, and then the oil temperature inside the journal bearings will be even higher than 150C ... that's why oil coolers were invented. Go do some extended track days with xW-16 or xW-20 and see how long your journal bearing will last, lol.

When oil gets squeezed in a journal bearing at high RPM it heats up pretty good, and the viscosity goes down from the heat and the shearing. Go research it.