Looking for first person story: My warranty denied because of oil used

[SC Maintenance]

Not quite. The relief valve shunts volume back to the feed side of the pump based on the pressure cap. So, say for example, like my HEMI, you have a 65psi relief. In this case, volume is directly coupled to RPM right up until 65psi, at which point the relief cracks, to keep maximum pressure at 65psi. At this point, volume is now decoupled from RPM and a further increase in RPM does not increase volume linearly like it was previously.

Of course if the pump is large enough, it's possible to overwhelm the relief and you'll still see pressure rise above the relief setting, as it's not possible for the pump to shunt all volume necessary to maintain the relief pressure back to the feed side.

As I posted on the previous page, with a link to an article that shows diagrams for both systems (unless there is a 3rd system that's not on there and I'm not aware of), it appears Toyota uses two different style pumps. It's the newer pump that uses oil pressure in a chamber, which is controlled by the ECM via a pressure control valve, that manipulates the rotor position to decrease or increase volume per rotation; effectively changing the size of the pump based on a couple of parameters monitored by the ECU.

The older style pump works mechanically via pressure with a pressure-actuated bypass valve that, in a certain RPM range, shunts more volume back to the feed-side of the pump when it isn't needed to reduce pumping losses.

I think were saying the same thing unless there is a 3rd design.

Old school pump - pressure increases by RPM until the relief valve opens.

Specific to the Toyota Dynamic force 4 cylinders, the bypass is ECU controlled but the volume of the pump is controlled by pressure inside the pump (not to be confused with oil system pressure). They describe it as:

"Under the action of pressure in the control chamber, a regulator moves and changes the mutual
position of the internal and external rotors, thereby achieving a smooth change of the oil charge
volume." https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/18-03-20_faq_df_r4_eng.htm

Presumably the rotors are on some sort of spring loaded eccentric which can vary their relative position and change their volume based on internal pump pressure - If I am reading that right. Of course since the ECU controls the bypass, that in fact directly controls the pressure in the pump at some times - so chicken or egg?

Either way I don't think oil weight has a lot to do with this.

 

[sk_pete]

Yet, they'll sell you an extended warranty for a lot, lot less than the price of a replacement engine.

and all service work-parts-oil will have price as gold. like mine, 70€ 3,5l oil.
you literally pay for it over the years.

 

[sk_pete]

"However, in hot weather, oil of a higher viscosity is required to properly lubricate the engine."

Wow ... required, not "recommended", bold move.

In other words, see a recommended viscosity vs ambient temperature chart like we puy in non-USA owner's manuals.

like stelantis, different sae when africa/eu/nordic....

 

[tiger862]

You believe you blew a radiator house from running a 10w40 oil? And the increased viscosity made more heat?

Wow. I blew radiator hose and had 10w40 in sump. Oil has nothing on radiator hose but within a short period engine seizing. Point is no matter grade there's nothing you can do to prevent catastrophic failure. I could have had gear oil still would have failed.

 

[OVERKILL]

I think were saying the same thing unless there is a 3rd design.

Old school pump - pressure increases by RPM until the relief valve opens.

Specific to the Toyota Dynamic force 4 cylinders, the bypass is ECU controlled but the volume of the pump is controlled by pressure inside the pump (not to be confused with oil system pressure). They describe it as:

"Under the action of pressure in the control chamber, a regulator moves and changes the mutual
position of the internal and external rotors, thereby achieving a smooth change of the oil charge
volume." https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/18-03-20_faq_df_r4_eng.htm

Presumably the rotors are on some sort of spring loaded eccentric which can vary their relative position and change their volume based on internal pump pressure - If I am reading that right. Of course since the ECU controls the bypass, that in fact directly controls the pressure in the pump at some times - so chicken or egg?

Either way I don't think oil weight has a lot to do with this.

My understanding of it is that it's like VCT where oil pressure in the chamber is manipulated by the ECM controlled solenoid mounted atop the pump, which in turn is what moves the chamber in relation to the rotor, changing the effective volume of the pump. It has nothing to do with the internal pump pressure, as the pressure in the chamber is ECM controlled.

The pump has a traditional bypass.

By default, the pump is probably in "high volume" configuration, like with VCT where it default to full advance, this is via a spring. The solenoid then controls oil entering the chamber to move the housing, effectively changing the pump size.

And yes, oil grade wouldn't have any impact on that, as it's still a positive displacement pump

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

and all service work-parts-oil will have price as gold. like mine, 70€ 3,5l oil.
you literally pay for it over the years.

Nobody is forcing you to go to the dealer for service, and IME (at least here in North America) dealer parts for maintenance items are actually fairly priced.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

Yes that's true, most of the problems with Hyundai engines can be solved by using an oil with adequate viscosity, 5w20 is barely teetering on the edge for those engines when brand new with tight clearances. It all goes back to viscosity, wear cannot occur if metal parts aren't coming into contact with each other. "Adequate" wear protection might get an engine through the warranty period, but very minute amounts of wear really add up when you start piling on 150,000, 200,000, or 300,000+ miles.

Ouch! Put THAT in Engine Oil 101!

What is striking to me is how divided the issue is.. some with "No, that can't be denied for that" and then some with "this is how it can be denied."

I've seen the types that stare at me like I'm pouring gasoline on their car striking the match when I put 5W-30 engine oil in a car that says 5W-20 on the cap.. and vice versa.

I've also always asked myself if a UOA can tell what GRADE of oil it was, and I can only come to the conclusion that it can't judge that thickness unless it put the used oil into an HTHS test machine, and even then that may not tell you what it originally was. If anyone say wanted to "find out" what kind of oil it was by testing, and removing the owner from the equation.

/endrant

 

[TiGeo]

People keep saying things like this but with no corresponding statement from either the owner’s manual nor the warranty booklet that says oil grade is tied to the new car warranty. Not even my Tiguan with the 508 00 “requirement” says that, and when I asked my dealership to use 504 00 oil instead for the free oil changes there wasn’t a peep about warranty. All they said was “OK”. Clearly they weren’t worried that a slightly higher HT/HS oil would cause an oil-related failure, damage the engine and void my warranty (which is the genesis of this whole discussion).

My point in that comment is simply that "they can"....not "would they". Seems to me that logic dictates if you blew your motor and provided adequate records however showed not using what was shown in the manual that this *could* lead to an issue w/r to warranty as has been anecdotally pointed out a few times by folks here. That's my whole point. Personally? This crap doesn't concern me and I would use what I wanted and not worry so much.

 

[SiRDOHC]

People keep saying things like this but with no corresponding statement from either the owner’s manual nor the warranty booklet that says oil grade is tied to the new car warranty. Not even my Tiguan with the 508 00 “requirement” says that, and when I asked my dealership to use 504 00 oil instead for the free oil changes there wasn’t a peep about warranty. All they said was “OK”. Clearly they weren’t worried that a slightly higher HT/HS oil would cause an oil-related failure, damage the engine and void my warranty (which is the genesis of this whole discussion).

Because its a YMMV kind of thing. In your case you are supplying the dealership with a source of after-sales revenue. Like I said in a previous post: Do what you want but have ducks in a row for warranty purposes if it comes to that.

 

[IveBeenRued]

Mods, can we get a retitling of this thread? Something along the lines of “Yet another thick vs thin/CAFE debate.” would be much more accurate compared to the current title.

So far we have one poster who was denied warranty work but it was due to lack of documentation, not because of using the wrong oil type. Non-CAFE debaters, did I miss any relevant posts amongst all the noise?

 

[TiGeo]

Mods, can we get a retitling of this thread? Something along the lines of “Yet another thick vs thin/CAFE debate.” would be much more accurate compared to the current title.

So far we have one poster who was denied warranty work but it was due to lack of documentation, not because of using the wrong oil type. Non-CAFE debaters, did I miss any relevant posts amongst all the noise?

He said it was due to both lack of records (so missing oil changes) AND using the wrong oil type.

 

[SiRDOHC]

Because its a YMMV kind of thing. In your case you are supplying the dealership with a source of after-sales revenue. Like I said in a previous post: Do what you want but have ducks in a row for warranty purposes if it comes to that.

 

[Astro14]

I wish we had the dead horse emoji…because this equine has been throughly pummeled.

Lock time.