Do you really think Toyota engineers would put the statement about using 0W-20 for a whole OCI (could be upto 10K miles), and the statement about using higher viscosity for heavier vehicle use in the OM if it was going to cause a problem with the variable volume oil pump? If using anything besides 0W-16 had any detrimental outcomes, niether if those statements would be in the OM.
Looking for first person story: My warranty denied because of oil used
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"However, in hot weather, oil of a higher viscosity is required to properly lubricate the engine."From the WRX thread of the same tone..."required". In before lock.
Wow ... required, not "recommended", bold move.
In other words, see a recommended viscosity vs ambient temperature chart like we puy in non-USA owner's manuals.
A major provision of MM is you can not void the ENTIRE warranty simply because aftermarket parts were used. You can not void the warranty on the A/C blower because someone has a lift. You CAN deny a warranty on parts that failed because of aftermarket parts were used and the use of those parts or the incorrect installation of those parts was the proximate cause of failure of a warrantied part. As I said, It IS illegal to deny warranty service for parts that have nothing to do with aftermarket parts. The post I replied to stated warranty work was denied that had nothing to do with the suspension modifications. That is illegal.
People poo poo MM all the time yet I've seen it work in real life.
So what happens every time you start your vehicle and the oil is 100x thicker at startup than operating temp? What happens on a -10F day where it can take miles and miles and miles for oil to get up to operating temperature? If the oil pump can handle this difference in viscosity do you really think a relatively tiny fractional difference in operating temperature viscosity makes any difference?
The other thing is that what automaker would be so technically stupid to think that a thinner oil protects an engine as well as a thicker one?
So much dreaming going on about what is printed in an owner's manual and then extrapolating that to some engineering requirement for an engine.
It is required - per their CAFE award letter requirements.
What? That's one heck of a poorly designed system then.
Please explain this tuning thing and how the system is unable to compensate.
I guess all the automakers are guilty then, otherwise they would recommend crappy 10W-40 oil.
The automakers spend millions of dollars engineering vehicles to operate on thinner and thinner oils in order to obtain lucrative CAFE credits. There is no benefit to them other than increased fuel economy. You invoking a "crappy" oil or grade and extrapolating that to actual technical vehicle requirements ignores the actual motivation to do so.
They aren't doing all of this work and spending all this money because the resulting oils are better in that sense. They aren't. They require expensive and specific considerations as to not cause undue wear and poor longevity.
The issue is that "aftermarket" here is in direct relation to say, an oil filter. So, the MM is saying that you buy a Fram filter, Ford can't nuke your entire warranty. The MM has nothing to do with aftermarket performance mods/parts and how they impact your warranty. I agree with you BTW that yes, if I lift my truck Ford shouldn't say my warranty is "voided" (I hate that term...the only way to void a manufacturer warranty really is to have a salvage title) or that I can't get some things covered but big tires/lift certainly can be shown to put more stress on the entire vehicle including the powertrain. Take my VW for example. Tuned. Modded. Warranty impacted for sure. I had some issues with the HVAC system. The dealer can clearly see/knows it's tuned when they scan it. OH MY GOD MY WARRANTY IS VOIDED OH MY GOD but no, it's not. They fixed it b/c it has nothing to do with it. Now they could have told me to get lost I suppose but that's up to VW, not the local Billy Bob VW dealer and in that case, you just have to get VW involved. No need for MM here and it doesn't really apply anyway.
When you say you've "seen it work in real life" - how specially? In court/arbitration? By someone claiming it in the service department? Here's a great video going into detail w/r to the MM and aftermarket performance parts by a lawyer that deals with this:
The dealership tried to deny all warranty work (basically say the bumper to bumper was void) because there were a few suspension mods. A quick visit with an attorney and $250 and one letter to the dealership later and they completely changed their tune. None of the warranty services needed had anything to do with the suspension mods and they fixed the issues under warranty without any further hassle. Not only that but he got a phone call from someone higher up apologizing and acknowledging that the service writer did not have a clue.
Yes, followed by:"However, in hot weather, oil of a higher viscosity is required to properly lubricate the engine."
Wow ... required, not "recommended", bold move.
In other words, see a recommended viscosity vs ambient temperature chart like we puy in non-USA owner's manuals.
"The following table lists the recommended viscosities and applicable temperatures". See table. 0W20 for all temps. HAHAHAAHAHA
Yes, for sure the manual is done that way b/c in some countries they get the old-school table showing multiple oil viscosities for different temp ranges. Still, here in the U.S., this is going to be the bible on what to use w/r to full warranty compliance. If you ever had this stupid issue in the first place which is in the "meteor killing you today" risk range so as always, use what you want and drive your car.
B/c the dealership knew that Ford would not deny the claim if they submitted it. Dealership-level decisions are often wrong. Glad it worked out. The dealership didn't want the drama.
I think the key in this case is to push the dealer to submit the claim and having them understand that the claim is for Ford to approve/deny, not them. So many at the dealer level have no idea how all of this works. Also important is to understand in the case of modified vehicles, the dealer tech often don't want to mess with them b/c of headaces that can and do cause delays and on flat-rate, they lose b/c of it. Really need to find a dealer and tech that aren't scared to work on modded vehicles!
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Most don't really understand how the Toyota oil system works.
Most pumps the oil pressure increases with increasing speed - and the excess pressure is bled off back into the pan to maintain max allowable pressure in the oiling system overall - for example at high RPM you might have 60PSI in the pump but a spring controlled bypss valve drops it back down to 40PSI at outlet.
The toyota pumps use mechanically controlled system that move the position of the rotors in relation to pressure in the pump - the purpose being to not generate more pressure than needed. Its not tuned to viscosity or oil type, its tuned to pressure.
To further complicate matters, they added an electronically controlled bypass valve that lowers oil pressure (to save fuel presumably) under certain light load conditions - ie under a certain RPM and under a certain calculated engine load. Said valve is controlled by the ECU.
However it is actually 5000 miles, because every 5000 mile interval in the service section says:
NOTE: If 0W-16 oil WAS NOT used at
the last oil change, replace engine oil
and oil filter.
I guess I will find out how all this works over time, as I own one, and I like to keep my cars forever. I'll keep you posted
Maybe its a CAFE thing.
Mazda Does. Have a look at the viscosity range chart for your CX-5 SKYACTIV-G 2.5 Engine.
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So what? Should I worry and change my oil because we are driving down to southern Utah and the 0W-20 is “too thin for the temperature”?
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Not quite. The relief valve shunts volume back to the feed side of the pump based on the pressure cap. So, say for example, like my HEMI, you have a 65psi relief. In this case, volume is directly coupled to RPM right up until 65psi, at which point the relief cracks, to keep maximum pressure at 65psi. At this point, volume is now decoupled from RPM and a further increase in RPM does not increase volume linearly like it was previously.
Of course if the pump is large enough, it's possible to overwhelm the relief and you'll still see pressure rise above the relief setting, as it's not possible for the pump to shunt all volume necessary to maintain the relief pressure back to the feed side.
As I posted on the previous page, with a link to an article that shows diagrams for both systems (unless there is a 3rd system that's not on there and I'm not aware of), it appears Toyota uses two different style pumps. It's the newer pump that uses oil pressure in a chamber, which is controlled by the ECM via a pressure control valve, that manipulates the rotor position to decrease or increase volume per rotation; effectively changing the size of the pump based on a couple of parameters monitored by the ECU.The toyota pumps use mechanically controlled system that move the position of the rotors in relation to pressure in the pump - the purpose being to not generate more pressure than needed. Its not tuned to viscosity or oil type, its tuned to pressure.
To further complicate matters, they added an electronically controlled bypass valve that lowers oil pressure (to save fuel presumably) under certain light load conditions - ie under a certain RPM and under a certain calculated engine load. Said valve is controlled by the ECU.
However it is actually 5000 miles, because every 5000 mile interval in the service section says:
NOTE: If 0W-16 oil WAS NOT used at
the last oil change, replace engine oil
and oil filter.
I guess I will find out how all this works over time, as I own one, and I like to keep my cars forever. I'll keep you posted
The older style pump works mechanically via pressure with a pressure-actuated bypass valve that, in a certain RPM range, shunts more volume back to the feed-side of the pump when it isn't needed to reduce pumping losses.
People keep saying things like this but with no corresponding statement from either the owner’s manual nor the warranty booklet that says oil grade is tied to the new car warranty. Not even my Tiguan with the 508 00 “requirement” says that, and when I asked my dealership to use 504 00 oil instead for the free oil changes there wasn’t a peep about warranty. All they said was “OK”. Clearly they weren’t worried that a slightly higher HT/HS oil would cause an oil-related failure, damage the engine and void my warranty (which is the genesis of this whole discussion).
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