LE 1605 Duolec(SAE 110), 6K miles, 2004 S2000 diff

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This gear oil replaces Lubrication Engineers LE 607 Almasol (SAE 90) with the new Duolec EP/AW/tackifier additive and a synthetic blend (LE 607 was 100% dino oil with Almasol EP/AW additive) base oil. I really liked how 607 performed and was worried when they changed the formula. It looks like it will be OK though. Vehicle-2004 Honda S2000 (AP2) Miles-46,442 Miles on diff (Torsen LSD)-46,442 Miles on oil-6,000 Diff oil capacity-0.82 qts Previous two UOA's were LE 607. This sample was the first UOA and fill of 1605. Miles on oil/6000/11,415/8000 Miles on unit/46,442/26,250/14,835 Aluminum/0/2/1 Chromium/1/1/2 Iron/79/172/188 Copper/0/0/1 Lead/0/0/0 Tin/0/0/0 Moly/0/0/0 Nickel/9/17/20 Manganese/1/4/0 Silver/0/0/0 Titanium/1/0/0 Potassium/1/1/6 Boron/44/12/32 Silicon/10/41/36 Sodium/2/2/1 Calcium/9/6/14 Magnesium/5/13/8 Phosphorus/1190/1591/1481 Zinc/11/14/11 Barium/1/0/2 SUS [email protected]/97.2/93.4/89.4 cSt [email protected]/19.69/18.79/17.83 Flashpoint F/425/425/425 Water%/0.0/0.0/0.0 Insolubles%/0.2/0.3/0.5 The drain plug had a very small amount of gray paste on it (magnet). The smallest amount I've ever seen on a drain plug. This fill had a small amount of residual LE 607, since I didn't flush the diff. I expect the viscosity will be a little higher if I do another UOA. I change the gear oil frequently (whenever the tranny fluid needs changed). It only has a 0.82qt capacity, so I figure it's good insurance.
 
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Gotta love OE engineers. How much does the vehicle weigh? How much HP does it have? How big is the 'end sump in 'ounces'? what were they smoking? 13.16 FE ppm per 1k miles 15.06 FE ppm per 1k miles 23.50 FE ppm per 1k miles Looks like wear is less. Go thicker and try 1606 or 9920!!!!!
 

INDYMAC

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I suspect that some of the reduced wear is from break-in (or is that broken as in missing teeth?). 2800# vehicle with 240Hp 2.2L NA engine (210RWHP). Pretty much a pipsqueak torque monster. The diffs have cause some consternation for several owners over the years. There have been some engineering gimmicks applied to the drivetrain to compensate for its frailties as a result. What were they smoking? Thai maybe? Do they still have opium dens over there? Not sure about the end sump capacity. Maybe someone else knows. I'm only aware of one diff (Torsen unit) failure using LE 607. The guy was bound and determined to break it so he could install a clutch type unit for drag racing. The LE 607 held up for 60K miles I think. 1605 is the only Duolec series gear oil available in qt bottles. The 5 gallon pail of 1606 would have been more than a lifetime supply. I'm hoping that the 24 qt case of 1605 will get me to the end though!
 
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Wow, didn't know those cars had such a small oil capacity. No wonder you are pedantic about diff oil changes! The first two UOAs were pretty consistent in iron content, but the third is about half the iron of the second... at about half the distance... making me wonder if the downtrend is due to the shortness of the interval as opposed to anything the oil did, or the diff breaking in. That first one was pretty high iron considering the short interval, but that's low enough mileage that break-in could still be occurring. Just my semi-educated musings.
 
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 Originally Posted By: unDummy
How big is the 'end sump in 'ounces'?
You mean: How much oil is in the diff? INDYMAC allready posted it: 0.82 quart. Some other info: ring gear is 7" Good report Great oil choice \:\! What is in now? the SG 75W-110?
 
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INDYMAC

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LE 1605 again. Like I said, it will take me awhile before I use up the new case I just bought! I tinkered with the idea of going SAE140, but decided to just stay with the 110 since I'm using it in my truck rear diff too. Here's a post I made awhile back that compares different gear oils (two RL's, Mobil 1, and LE607) from UOA standpoint in the S2000 differential: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post801388
 

INDYMAC

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 Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
 Originally Posted By: unDummy
How big is the 'end sump in 'ounces'?
You mean: How much oil is in the diff? INDYMAC allready posted it: 0.82 quart.
I wonder if undummy wants to know what the dry fill quantity is. It's not listed in the owner's manual. Maybe a builder might know. Did you do the rebuild on yours? Did it take more than a quart?
 

INDYMAC

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 Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
No wonder you are pedantic about diff oil changes!
"pedantic"-good word choice, but I had to look it up!!!
 
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 Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
 Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
No wonder you are pedantic about diff oil changes!
"pedantic"-good word choice, but I had to look it up!!!
It's certainly more polite that A-R! But back to the oil thing, when you have a capacity that small with a history of trouble, you're doing just the right thing.
 

INDYMAC

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It's 21.2 @ 100C and 229.0 @ 40C. You can navigate to the data sheets for Duolec by going to the LE website, select products, then gear oils, then industrial and you'll find the Duolec series. With 100% LE 1605 in the diff now, I expect the viscosities to be closer to advertised specs than this UOA shows.
 
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I'm still running the LE507 in the rear of my old '86 Ford, but here's an interesting story. I have a big PTO driven Woods chopper (Bush-Hog type thing). It blew out the lower gearbox seal one day working and all the oil puked out. With the tractor revved up to PTO speed and the chopper sounding like... well... a chopper, I didn't notice anything until the gearbox started howling. Debated tearing it down but it hadn't loosed up and didn't feel particularly rough. After replacing only the seal, I put some regular Valvoline SAE 85W90 in it but it was still noisy. On a whim, I drained that and poured in some of my treasured stash of LE607... voila! In about five minutes of operation the noise is barely discernible. Still is!
 
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I think that the issue with LE is how they market. Not everyone wants to buy a case or pail. ~3200lbs of weight pushed by ~200hp with the 'end taking ~25 ounces of gear oil, seems like the path to destruction. Kind of meaningless to talk in fractions of a quart when the sump hold 'ounces'. My similar weight but underpowered '91 Rx7 took about a quart and a half to fill. Use viscosity and maintenance intervals to make up for ganja-engineering. Drill/tap the end for some fittings and e-pump some oil through it.
 

INDYMAC

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Interesting analogy undummy. SpitfireS now uses AMSOIL SAE 190 in his rebuilt diff. SAE 140 was recommended from what I remember, but he decided to up the ante. Maybe he'll respond with a comparison review between SAE 90 and SAE 190 usages.
 
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My service manual does list a rebuild fill and servive fill: Rebuild: 0.77 liter Service: 0.74 liter. When I filled my diff last time I actually overfilled it slightly, by 100cc or so. undummy posted:
 Quote:
~3200lbs of weight pushed by ~200hp with the 'end taking ~25 ounces of gear oil, seems like the path to destruction.
Honda does recommend a singe grade SAE 90 for the diff. Not the popular 75W-90 oil, IMO for the same reason you mentioned. To be precise: Honda recommended SAE 90 GL-5 OR GL-6. The GL-6 spec never became official but was intended to be used with high offset hypoid gears. The offset in the S2k diff is IMO high, as the pinion sits pretty low in relation to the ring. Yes, I'm using Amsoil SG SAE 190 now but no UOA yet. Its not in there long enough to drain it, it wasn't cheap (to fly it in from the US) so its staying in for a while. It did make the whiney 4.57 gears a bit less noisy and it doesn't become more noisy when the gears get a workout. I've used LE607 for a while too with the 4.57 gears and last time that was drained I noticed just a shadow of metal on the magnetic drain plug (no UOA done.. UOA's overhere are pretty expensive, the magnetic drain told it all IMO) I don't think "we" need to confince anybody here that the S2000 diff needs a good gear oil.
 
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What is the hypoid offset on that axle? The most I've seen was 2.38 inches on the Ford 8 and 9-inch dropouts, though there was a special low pinion Dana 53 in the 1950s used in Lincolns that had a 2.37 inch offset. Is it a Hotchkiss or Salisbury style axle on the Honda? If the latter, and there's room, maybe an enlarged capacity cover is possible to increase lube capacity. Overfilling can bring on more heat due to fluid friction. If I were you guys, a diff temp gauge would be on the round-to-it list.
 

INDYMAC

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I can't answer your questions Jim, but I don't think Spitfire really means that the gears are high offset in the strictest sense of the term. His observations along with the Honda recommendation for GL5 or 6 would indicate that it's not a standard offset pinion and ring design. I agree with avoiding overfill of the sump, or anything for that matter. I have only had bad things happen with that practice in any automotive or lawnmower component. Aeration/foaming would be my biggest concern in the diff. I'm not really sure what actually happened to the GL6 spec. What were the oil and auto companies trying to accomplish with this newly designed oil? Was the technology just not there, or was there not enough market to justify the cost? I've seen that some GL6 gear oils are actually available in Canada, but I haven't seen any in the States. Also, a couple of owners hooked up makeshift gauges in the early days that really didn't show too much. Temps seemed to rise about 100F above ambient (150's) from what I remember. LE 607 did well from what I recall too, but I can't find the threads now.
 
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This is the 4.57 set, made by Richmond gears. Double Diamond The ring is 7" so you can somewhat guesstimate the offset. Maybe the offset by itself (lets say 1 3/4 ") has to be "valued" in relation to the diameter of the ring gear? The pinion is close to being completely submerged IMO if you use the fill-till-it-overflows rule, just a little more will (IMO!) not cause foaming. Draining the oil after a drive showed no foam or airation. The output shafts bearings (journals) are below the OEM fill level. 100CC extra will put the level just a little higher. I'm not saying everyone should do it but so far it did no harm to my diff
 
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