Dodge Durango 3.6L - HPL 5w-20 - 21,079 Miles on oil

wwillson

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Doubling of the iron numbers between 15k and 20k miles is something to definitely keep an eye on.
I believe we have a plausible explanation with so much carbon in the filter.

Why push it past 20k?
Why not, given the TBN?

I'd love to see a side by side comparison of the two.
ok - you run M1 EP for 20 months and 20,000 miles and let's see how it does.
 
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2014 3.6L Pentastar
Great engine. 300hp with 87 octane and can feet good MPG. Have had a couple.

I’m somewhat familiar with the 3.6 oil cooler. I believe construction is (Fluxless) Vacuum Brazed aluminum layered core design. Pretty standard today for engine mounted oil coolers. Shouldn’t be much Cu leaching from it.
 

wwillson

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I’m somewhat familiar with the 3.6 oil cooler. I believe construction is (Fluxless) Vacuum Brazed aluminum layered core design. Pretty standard today for engine mounted oil coolers. Shouldn’t be much Cu leaching from it.
@OIL_UDDER Do you know where the Cu would be coming from in the Pentastar oil sump?
 

dnewton3

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The Fe wear is not a concern, but something to watch. Went from 1ppm/1k mi to 2ppm/1k miles. That's not a bad wear rate by any means, but it's an upward trend in the last two reports. The esters cleaning effect is certainly a plausible explanation. With the the cleaning of the esters, it may be a good thing to change the Ultra every 10k or 15k until the Fe wear settles to a steady rate again.

Si is what I see which may also be an issue. It's escalating, and may actually be the cause for a portion of the Fe as well. How much so? Can't really say, but the Si is definitely on a trend upward and something very important to watch. How's the air filtration, Wayne? Do you have a restriction gauge on it?

I know Wayne takes top-notch care of his vehicles. There's nothing at risk here. It's a well-monitored experiment worthy of continuing.
 
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Now that's funny, I have that exact drain plug installed...
I use it on all our vehicles. I also put magnets on the oil filters that have spin-ons. I guess that if your filter went into bypass mode, as you described, then there isn't much the magnet could have done. Maybe change the filter mid OCI? The HPL looks like really good oil, I'm seriously considering it. Was there a lot of metalic goo on the drain plug?
 

wwillson

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wwillson

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How's the air filtration, Wayne?
I pulled the air filter and it does have some dirt, bugs, and the normal stuff, but it doesn't look bad. However, I looked in my records and see that the air filter has 46,000 miles on it. Um, I think it may be time for a new one. 😑

I wonder if enough dirt worked its way through the filter and into the intake, because the filter is 3.5 years old and has 46,000 miles? If that's the case, then I need to dump the oil.

Do you have a restriction gauge on it?
No
 
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dnewton3

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Air filters generaly can live very long lives if they are intact. Though the OEM schedules are often 30k, it's not unheard of to see a properly maintained filter go 2x that distance or more. However, the only real way to know it to get a restriction gauge and track it's vacuum values.
 
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I pulled the air filter and it does have some dirt, bugs, and the normal stuff, but it doesn't look bad. However, I looked in my records and see that the air filter has 46,000 miles on it. Um, I think it may be time for a new one. 😑

I wonder if enough dirt worked its way through the filter and into the intake, because the filter is 3.5 years old and has 46,000 miles? If that's the case, then I need to dump the oil.

This would be where I'd draw the line myself. Dirt and debris through intake is never a good thing.
 
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The Fe wear is not a concern, but something to watch. Went from 1ppm/1k mi to 2ppm/1k miles. That's not a bad wear rate by any means, but it's an upward trend in the last two reports. The esters cleaning effect is certainly a plausible explanation. With the the cleaning of the esters, it may be a good thing to change the Ultra every 10k or 15k until the Fe wear settles to a steady rate again.

Si is what I see which may also be an issue. It's escalating, and may actually be the cause for a portion of the Fe as well. How much so? Can't really say, but the Si is definitely on a trend upward and something very important to watch. How's the air filtration, Wayne? Do you have a restriction gauge on it?

I know Wayne takes top-notch care of his vehicles. There's nothing at risk here. It's a well-monitored experiment worthy of continuing.
In case you didn't see it, HPL Dave stated that 7ppm of the Si in the virgin oil is a defoamer.
 
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Why push it past 20k?
Why not, given the TBN?
Ummm, because your iron numbers have doubled in the past 5000 miles....

I'd love to see a side by side comparison of the two.
ok - you run M1 EP for 20 months and 20,000 miles and let's see how it does.
You can't be serious.
We both know that UOA's can't be compared across different engines on the same platform, let alone across differing models.
So your request is a straw man argument, irrelevant to a real discussion of product performance.

So it only begs the question of why?
You could have readily and reasonably stated that you weren't interested in a side by side comparison.
But you didn't....
 
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VOA shows 7-8 ppm silicon as defoamer. Notice the uptick in Si the same as everything else which to me supports the theory of this being a cleaning effect and increased bypass events.
 
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This is a great starting point. Like I said,if it was me, I would be dumping the oil because of possible contamination from a dirty air filter. Simply do another round of samples to 20,000 miles.
 
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@wwillson - The additional copper is probably from bushings. Your copper number spiked when your filter went into bypass mode and that gritty carbon circulated through the engine, the same as your iron number. The oil heat exchanger on the Pentastar engine is made of aluminum.
 

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The observation about the oil filter plugging up seems to dovetail with @The Critic's thread about AMSOIL's observation with their EaO filters on certain engines doing the same (one being the HEMI). Clearly a risk in some instances and with certain engines that may produce more particulate than others.
 
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My only concern regarding the hard carbon being cleaned as well as we think in this case, and the filter going into bypass is scoring a cylinder wall, or possibly a bearing. I've seen bits for carbon that is rock hard. I agree in changing the filter early, or perhaps a dual filter system if the application allows for easy installation of one.
 

dnewton3

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In case you didn't see it, HPL Dave stated that 7ppm of the Si in the virgin oil is a defoamer.
Exactly ... The anti-foam agent only accounts for a decreasing portion of the increasing Si.
Here's the numbers: 11, 11, 15, 25 (taken every 5k miles of this OCI).
The anti-foam is now only about 28% of the total Si count.
I seriously doubt the anti-foam is increasing itself as the OCI matures, so it's likely that the true source of the increase is silica and not silicone.

So here's the $64k question ...
Is the Si going up because it, too, is being released by the cleaning effects of the esters, just like our theory of the hard-carbon? Is there dormant Si trapped in hidden areas of the engine now re-emerging into the oil sump? I honestly don't know; it's probably as plausible as the carbon theory. The thing is that we have so few examples of these super-premium lubes introduced into high mileage engines. Wayne didn't start using this lube at mile 1, for the total of 132k miles; he just started using it when the vehicle already had over 100k miles on it. So, is the increase of wear metals due to the scrubbing clean of junk previously left behind? Or is there a seperate and distinct wear-inducing issue afoot? Is this a coincidence that the insolubles found and Si are both increasing, or are they linked?

Here's the potential cause/effcts in summary:
*note: a wild card here is the unknown about how the oil filter may or may not have been loaded such that it was potentially in bypass
1) the insolubles and Si both are increasing due to esters cleaning out old stuff - the increase of elements causing wear are related; this is causing higher wear and will be temporary (one root cause is revealing two related wear-inducing elements)
2) the insolubles and SI are unrelated in increase; the insolubles are ester driven and the Si is ingestion driven (two unique root causes in coincidence)

One variable has already been manipulated; the oil filter has been changed at this most recent UOA. That may or may not bring contamination down, and thus have a positive effect on the wear trends. If the wear comes down, then perhaps the OCI can continue. If the filter changes does not reduce wear, then it's time for an OCI.

The thing to do here is keep on with the current plan. Run the lube and take another UOA in 5k miles; see if the wear trends continue, or taper off. If the wear increases in this next UOA, I would say it's time for a OCI reset, then pick the plan back up.
 
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