Dodge Durango 3.6L - HPL 5w-20 - 21,079 Miles on oil

wwillson

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This is a sample pulled from my Durango 3.6L with 132,679 miles total and 21,079 miles on the oil. The oil is HP 5w-20 by High Performance Lubricants in Manteno, IL. This oil is intended for extended drain intervals. I will sample again at 25,000 miles. Filter is a Fram Ultra, which was changed at this sample. Consumption was zero. Lab is WearCheck. The oil has been in service since 12/26/2019

The viscosity has increased slightly but the TBN is still 3.985, so we are going to run it to 25,000 miles and resample.

Iron almost doubled in the latest sample. I decided to change the Fram Ultra filter since it had 21,000 miles. This oil has an ester as one of the base oils and from the pictures of the filter, loosened a lot of carbon. The carbon I removed from the filter with my finger was hard and gritty. In the last 5,000 miles there was a considerable amount of high RPM mountain driving. The 3.6L boosts oil pressure and flow at high RPMs, I'm afraid the oil filter was bypassing at the high flow rates and circulated some of the hard carbon through the engine causing the elevated iron. Lesson learned, when you switch to a high ester oil, change the filter every 5,000 miles.

The Fram Ultra was in excellent shape.

Sample Information
Sample DateFeb 2020Dec 2020March 2021August 2021
Machine Age miles116,000122,200127,420132,679
Oil Age miles5,00011,20015,82021,079
Machine Time hours--
Oil Time hours--
Filter Age miles5,00011,20015,82021,079
Oil Changednononono
Filter Changednononoyes
BrandHPLHPLHPLHPL
Viscosity5w-20 HDEO5w-20 HDEO5w-20 HDEO5w-20 HDEO
Wear Metals
Iron5132142
Chromium<1<1<12
Nickel000<1
Titanium<1<1<1<1
Silver<1<1<1<1
Aluminum3315
Lead00<11
Copper3101639
Tin0<10<1
Antimony00<1<1
Vanandium<1<10<1
Cadmium000<1
Additives
Boron181814243
Barium3010
Molybdenum523521500518
Manganese<1<1<12
Magnesium462446430467
Calcium3422323732033379
Phosphorus788777760754
Zinc948924884949
Contaminants
Silicon11111525
Sodium4458
Potassium1<123
Fuel %<1.0<1.0<1.0<1.0
GlycolNegNegNegNeg
Soot%0.10.10.10.1
Fluid Condition
TBN12.37.35.053.985
Viscosity8.89.19.49.56


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I had the same with my Tahoe with a good bit of carbon in the filter and elevated iron.

Some oxidative thickening, but not a bad thing and not excessive. I'd say it's good to go 25k and check again.
 
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Just because this is BITOG, and this is why we're here.... Lemme lob you a softball and see how you and anyone else cares to respond...

You don't think that the carbon is from a high quality oil that's seen some severe service, in use for 20K miles? You are saying that for the first 15K miles, there was not a significant amount of carbon cleaned off the engine, but in the last 5K, the oil cleaned off enough carbon to cause that increased wear?
 

wwillson

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You don't think that the carbon is from a high quality oil that's seen some severe service, in use for 20K miles?
No, because when I rubbed the carbon between my fingers, it's hard as a rock and very gritty. Agglomerated material would not be hard and gritty. The carbon almost certainly came from the piston crowns and ring lands.

You are saying that for the first 15K miles, there was not a significant amount of carbon cleaned off the engine, but in the last 5K, the oil cleaned off enough carbon to cause that increased wear?
There is no way to tell, as the first time I changed the filter was at 21,000 miles. My speculation, based off the increased metals between 16,000 and 21,000 miles is that the high RPMs going up and down the mountain passes caused the filter to go into bypass when the two stage oil pump kicked into high side at high RPMs. While in bypass at high flow rates, there is no way to stop turbulence in the filter from picking up the carbon and recirculating it through the engine. I could have reduced the chance of carbon recirculation by changing the filter and would have had I known this much carbon would come off the internals. Esters really do clean. Like I stated before, lesson learned the hard way.
 
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It's also 4 less times you have to get under the car, better for the environment with less oil waste, and the money goes to a company that supports this forum and our hobbies.

I took two samples this morning, one from my wife's Mustang at 20k miles and one from my Tahoe at 10k miles. I should have reports back on those next week.
 

wwillson

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Is it normal for Boron levels to progressively drop over time?
Yes, boron ends up in the oil filter. This is a response to the same question from @High Performance Lubricants

 

wwillson

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Copper is quickly trending in wrong direction.
Copper leaches from the oil cooler and there is no problem with copper in the oil.

See this previous post and article on Machinery Lubrication.

 
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IMV there is a little bit of the familiar oxidative thickening, between 15 and 20k miles.

The copper I would be slightly concerned about, but then again, this is a very shear stable oil.
Edit: I see OPs reply re copper now.

Considering the "scavenger effect" from the esters, this is a stellar report.

Would the PCMO show any different results ?

Thank you wwillson !
 

Astro14

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That’s an outstanding report, Wayne. Very impressive product.

For those of us not in IL, would you have a link to their purchase site?
 

wwillson

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For those of us not in IL, would you have a link to their purchase site?
See this post:

 
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Copper leaches from the oil cooler and there is no problem with copper in the oil.

See this previous post and article on Machinery Lubrication.

What model year is this Dodge?
 
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Not sure if that sudden increase in Iron would frighten me a bit. I think I'd personally change now and see what it's like at the next 20k. Either way, seems an impressive oil.
 
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Absolutely, HPL oils are $9/qt so if you changed another oil 5 times you would need to pay $1.80/qt to end up with the same cost.
Doubling of the iron numbers between 15k and 20k miles is something to definitely keep an eye on. Why push it past 20k?

Mobil1 EP can be had for $14.37/5qt after rebate and can be run for 20,000 miles per Mobil's claims. I'd love to see a side by side comparison of the two.

The math behind these boutique oils that claim 20k+ drain intervals never added up to me. I just don't see what is so special to justify the greater than 3x cost factor.

If the justification is a hobby or personal interest that one thing but I don't see it rooted in performance data.
 
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