Large sump seems like a black hole for condensation for a short tripper. I
Larger sumps on modern engines?
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Larger sumps mean people can neglect their vehicle more than ever. Society has changed, cars are treated like appliances. The local gas station used to check your oil for you, not any more. A large sump has a built in safety factor.
I don't mind having a little extra capasity in my cars sump. My 2 cylinder Harley holds 4 qts for the motor, 1 qt for the primary( clutch and chain ), and almost a qt for the transmission. And its a motorcycle.,,,
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: Kuato
1986 Ford 5.0 sump: 5 quarts
2013 Ford 5.0 Coyote: 7.7 quarts
Honest question here, what grade oil did the '86 and 2013 V8 take ?
Also what would have been the standard power output and the typical OCI ?
Answers to this above are correct....Mustang HP in '86 was higher than the trucks, it was the "HO" motor IIRC with roller valvetrain and a few other tweaks. OCI was I think 3000 severe and 6000 non severe. Oil grade as above, specifications were 5w30 IIRC on the '86; the 2013 is 5w20 in the truck but 5w50 in the Mustang.
Truck was 150HP and 270 torque, Mustang 200HP and 285 torque
( http://www.automobile-catalog.com/make/ford_usa/bronco_3gen/bronco_3gen_wagon/1986.html and
http://www.automobile-catalog.com/make/ford_usa/mustang_3gen/mustang_3gen_gt_3-door/1986.html )
Originally Posted By: Kuato
1986 Ford 5.0 sump: 5 quarts
2013 Ford 5.0 Coyote: 7.7 quarts
Honest question here, what grade oil did the '86 and 2013 V8 take ?
Also what would have been the standard power output and the typical OCI ?
Answers to this above are correct....Mustang HP in '86 was higher than the trucks, it was the "HO" motor IIRC with roller valvetrain and a few other tweaks. OCI was I think 3000 severe and 6000 non severe. Oil grade as above, specifications were 5w30 IIRC on the '86; the 2013 is 5w20 in the truck but 5w50 in the Mustang.
Truck was 150HP and 270 torque, Mustang 200HP and 285 torque
( http://www.automobile-catalog.com/make/ford_usa/bronco_3gen/bronco_3gen_wagon/1986.html and
http://www.automobile-catalog.com/make/ford_usa/mustang_3gen/mustang_3gen_gt_3-door/1986.html )
Yeah, I think in GM's case, they are using AFM in the light pickups and that has its own demands on oils, and these same engines are now pretty much DI variety. Both of those can be pretty harsh on oils. Having a higher amount of oil just makes good sense. Ever wonder why commercial engines that are about twice the size of these pickup engines have sump capacities that are several times larger? A 12.7L Detroit will have a 9.5 gallon sump. A 6.2 gasser in a GM pickup has 8 qts. About time the OEM's figured out that larger than lawnmower sumps are beneficial.
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Larger sump = extended drain
The new Toyota 2.5L w/10k OCI spec still has small (4.5 qt) oil capacity.
Larger sump = extended drain
The new Toyota 2.5L w/10k OCI spec still has small (4.5 qt) oil capacity.
10k is a short/normal oci though...
Quote:
Larger sumps mean people can neglect their vehicle more than ever. Society has changed, cars are treated like appliances. The local gas station used to check your oil for you, not any more. A large sump has a built in safety factor.
This make sense. More people are leasing trucks than ever before. The manufacturers are underwriting these leases. Less potential issues at the end of a 24,000 mile or 36,000 mile lease
Larger sumps mean people can neglect their vehicle more than ever. Society has changed, cars are treated like appliances. The local gas station used to check your oil for you, not any more. A large sump has a built in safety factor.
This make sense. More people are leasing trucks than ever before. The manufacturers are underwriting these leases. Less potential issues at the end of a 24,000 mile or 36,000 mile lease
Larger sump -> lower operational oil temp -> higher operational viscosity -> speccing Xw20 instead of Xw30
Extended drains and the fact that most people never check their oil between OCIs. That was the reason a GM engineer gave for the extra capacity when the Ecotec V8s were 1st introduced a few years ago. In other words, the engine still lives two quarts low continually.
Originally Posted By: 92saturnsl2
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Oil sump size is supposed to be engineered to make sure there's sufficient capacity for contamination holding during the intended oil change intervals.
So what changed between earlier model 5.3L engines and this newest revision that prompted them to add 3 quarts sump capacity?
Direct injection? Is that engine DI engine? If it is, there is your answer.
High sulfur levels in the U.S. gas are depleting TBN fairly fast, depending on amount of gas that ends up in sump. More oil, less contamination.
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Oil sump size is supposed to be engineered to make sure there's sufficient capacity for contamination holding during the intended oil change intervals.
So what changed between earlier model 5.3L engines and this newest revision that prompted them to add 3 quarts sump capacity?
Direct injection? Is that engine DI engine? If it is, there is your answer.
High sulfur levels in the U.S. gas are depleting TBN fairly fast, depending on amount of gas that ends up in sump. More oil, less contamination.
Aside from the impact on the wallet, a large sump also means that the oil takes longer to get up to temperature.
Not a problem in spring, summer and fall, but winters in the northern states could see moisture problems showing up.
Not a problem in spring, summer and fall, but winters in the northern states could see moisture problems showing up.
Aren't the new 5.3s direct injected? I'd imagine that's the biggest change over the previos gen 5.3s.
It's interesting to note however that my parent's Hyundai Genesis with the 5.0 uses about a quart less oil than my N62 powered 550i (~7.5 vs 8.5 quarts.) That engine uses DI while my BMW uses PI. My BMW also has much longer Drain intervals, which I no longer follow, but the N62 seems like it would be harder on oil compared to the Hyundai TAU engines which from what I've heard, are similar to Ford's V8s.
It's interesting to note however that my parent's Hyundai Genesis with the 5.0 uses about a quart less oil than my N62 powered 550i (~7.5 vs 8.5 quarts.) That engine uses DI while my BMW uses PI. My BMW also has much longer Drain intervals, which I no longer follow, but the N62 seems like it would be harder on oil compared to the Hyundai TAU engines which from what I've heard, are similar to Ford's V8s.
MolaKule
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Originally Posted By: Alex_V
One possible consideration is engineering bigger sumps to stretch OCI's to make said vehicle "lower maintenance". In addition to spreading out thermal load, etc.
I, too, think these is the primary reasons.
One possible consideration is engineering bigger sumps to stretch OCI's to make said vehicle "lower maintenance". In addition to spreading out thermal load, etc.
I, too, think these is the primary reasons.
Bit of an anecdote related to the buses again... The requirements often stipulated (annual oil changes, more or less) have necessitated bigger sumps from some of the manufacturers of the latest vehicles meeting current Euro standards. So sumps have been made bigger to suit the customer's requirements.
Even the old Bimmer has a 7 quart sump - it's a '93, but the 7,500 mile interval (which carried over from the E30's, as I understand) was still quite a stretch back then with conventional oils.
One day I may well test the effect over-filling by one quart has on a UOA - the sump is so big an overfill by 1qt won't harm anything, and is usually used by track guys to prevent oil starvation.
Compare the old BMW I6's (M30, M5x) with say, the Saab (Turbo) H-engine. Not only was there a small sump, but it was right against the exhaust. The oil itself subjected to the rigours of a turbo and a PCV that was later found to be faulty. The interval was about 7,500 miles, and the oil a semi-synthetic. These were known to make nice, rock-hard sludge...
Even the old Bimmer has a 7 quart sump - it's a '93, but the 7,500 mile interval (which carried over from the E30's, as I understand) was still quite a stretch back then with conventional oils.
One day I may well test the effect over-filling by one quart has on a UOA - the sump is so big an overfill by 1qt won't harm anything, and is usually used by track guys to prevent oil starvation.
Compare the old BMW I6's (M30, M5x) with say, the Saab (Turbo) H-engine. Not only was there a small sump, but it was right against the exhaust. The oil itself subjected to the rigours of a turbo and a PCV that was later found to be faulty. The interval was about 7,500 miles, and the oil a semi-synthetic. These were known to make nice, rock-hard sludge...
I've noticed this trend as well. It seemed to start with European brands and now is becoming more common globally. Chrysler's ubiquitous Pentastar V-6 takes six quarts. Seems like a good idea to me. Better to have a bit more oil capacity and longer drain intervals instead of less capacity and more frequent changes. Time is actually more than money. There are always ways to make some more $$$$, but our clocks all run out eventually.
While one of their intentions for increasing oil sump was to extend maintenance intervals, two camps will always be the norm... those that have their own ideas on when to change the oil irregardless of sump, and those that consider an oil change a nuisance in their lifestyle and will not change the oil till it is almost too late. Both camps the OLM and OEM recommendations mean very little if anything.
Originally Posted By: dwendt44
Aside from the impact on the wallet, a large sump also means that the oil takes longer to get up to temperature.
Not a problem in spring, summer and fall, but winters in the northern states could see moisture problems showing up.
It retains that temperature longer once you turn off car.
My BMW has 8qt sump and it is diesel. It takes some time to reach temp, but once it reaches around 80c, you can park while it is 10 degrees outside, come back 4hrs later, and temp. is still around 30-40c.
Aside from the impact on the wallet, a large sump also means that the oil takes longer to get up to temperature.
Not a problem in spring, summer and fall, but winters in the northern states could see moisture problems showing up.
It retains that temperature longer once you turn off car.
My BMW has 8qt sump and it is diesel. It takes some time to reach temp, but once it reaches around 80c, you can park while it is 10 degrees outside, come back 4hrs later, and temp. is still around 30-40c.
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