JT20's Subaru

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On the O2 thing, I believe I already explained this to you, but it's not just as easy as the O2's pulling fuel via the trims, which I expect the enrichment would be outside the range of adjustment for at anything beyond very light load anyways, but I've got a few minutes, so I'll try and explain it again:

An engine's fuel consumption for power produced is called BSFC. Brake-Specific Fuel Consumption. This is not universal, some engines are more or less efficient than others but for the sake of this discussion, since both engines are SOHC Subaru boxer engines let's assume that the BSFC figures are the same for both engines.

On a MAF equipped car the ECM looks at the volume of air consumed and matches it with the fuel value it sees in the table, this is how it discerns load (air consumption). So displacement doesn't matter, it knows the air volume and can subsequently align the fuel accordingly.

On a MAP (Speed Density) equipped car load is determined from manifold vacuum, or rather, the lack thereof. This means the ECM fuels based on a table for a given alignment of vacuum, temperature and RPM.

So, at idle, both engines are going to have very close BSFC's. As you increase load, the distance between the program and the anticipated BSFC will widen. Why? Because let's say for the sake of argument your 2.5L made 160HP at WOT at 4,500RPM. The fuel table would be configured to properly satisfy the enrichment requirements of 160HP. Now, let's say we've swapped in an engine that makes 110HP at WOT at 4,500RPM. The engine is still being provided with fuel to feed 160HP because it only looks at load (vacuum), RPM and temperature to determine the fuelling requirements. Also, HEGO input is typically ignored under WOT and you you go out of base table.

So, your O2's will be switching and functioning under light load where the table is reasonably close and the trims will likely be able to compensate. But when you get on it, it will over fuel significantly because it's trying to satisfy the BSFC requirements of a 1/2L larger engine that produced more HP.

Does that make sense?

Yes.... That does make sense.

Let me re-state to you the takeaways I got (we used to do this when I was 12 years old and it always worked well:)

1. MAP IS Speed Density. They are one in the same.
2. MAF is more able to measure (and adjust) things.
3. You are more likely to find MAF on an older car.

Question.. 4. What is HEGO?

Also, HEGO input is typically ignored under WOT and you you go out of base table.

:)

As I go over to Procom tuning to ask them about the situation lol...
 
My car also still throws P0420 "eventually," and the guy told me the CAT is "A part of the manifold" or "in another unit" so... He can do good work, when he wants to, but I usually go to him when I'm in a pinch.

The kind of thing that makes you want to learn how to do things yourself.

Okay, I'm going over to Pro-Com :)
 
Another concern with getting the $60 ECU - it may be for a MAF equipped car. In which case, it will not work and will have other problems.

If it's setting a P0420, it's probably best to just do the oxygen sensor spacer trick and not idle it for long periods of time.
 
HEGO = Heated Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor, these are your O2's.

MAF is found on all manner of vehicles old and new. Subaru's flip-flop is bizarre but I expect done based on the economics.

Here's a new (2019) Nissan pick-up we had as a rental in NC, you can see the MAF is part of the upper airbox:
4D3B0418-420B-49A4-B994-5167CB236C62_1_105_c.webp
 
For the future reference: Black text is super hard to read on the dark theme...

I don't disagree that the ideal is to tune the speed density system to the engine, what i'm not sure i'm totally onboard with is if ideal is necessary in this instance.

Ok let me go study up on this swap, i'll be back - at some point...
 
HEGO = Heated Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor, these are your O2's.

MAF is found on all manner of vehicles old and new. Subaru's flip-flop is bizarre but I expect done based on the economics.

Here's a new (2019) Nissan pick-up we had as a rental in NC, you can see the MAF is part of the upper airbox:


Mitsubishi also flip-flops. The Mirage - yes, yes I know crappy car but I like them - has had both in the US since 2013. Appears to be random as to which models got which.

I will say my Jeep that uses a MAP setup can take one heck of a vacuum leak! The brake booster is rusted out pretty bad. I have to have a functional brake booster for inspection (for all 180 miles I drive it a year) so I usually uncap the vacuum line and hook up the booster. It somehow runs and doesn't get confused with only 3 in/hg of vacuum at idle!
 
Mitsubishi also flip-flops. The Mirage - yes, yes I know crappy car but I like them - has had both in the US since 2013. Appears to be random as to which models got which.

I will say my Jeep that uses a MAP setup can take one heck of a vacuum leak! The brake booster is rusted out pretty bad. I have to have a functional brake booster for inspection (for all 180 miles I drive it a year) so I usually uncap the vacuum line and hook up the booster. It somehow runs and doesn't get confused with only 3 in/hg of vacuum at idle!

I bet she's pretty rich!!! LMAO!

The Ford Speed Density systems were NOT tolerant of reduced vacuum. You put a cam in an SD 5.0L and if it didn't produce close to factory vacuum? Good luck. They would hunt like crazy until they stalled. Guys would crank up the idle to prevent them from stalling but they would surge like nobody's business.

I was proactive, when I knew I was going to be modding mine I did the MAF conversion first, then H/C/I was a walk in the park. Also did it on my Lincoln when I did the warmed-over 302HO upgrade.
 
I just got 19.84MPG with it so I like the tune idea.

I sure hope Pocom can help. He got a little shaky when I mentioned JDM...
 
Mitsubishi also flip-flops. The Mirage - yes, yes I know crappy car but I like them - has had both in the US since 2013. Appears to be random as to which models got which.

I will say my Jeep that uses a MAP setup can take one heck of a vacuum leak! The brake booster is rusted out pretty bad. I have to have a functional brake booster for inspection (for all 180 miles I drive it a year) so I usually uncap the vacuum line and hook up the booster. It somehow runs and doesn't get confused with only 3 in/hg of vacuum at idle!

That also explains why a car that I had that had MAF and a busted brake booster had virtually no brakes. I got my leg workout in on that car.

They say the steel in the brake pedal is the strongest in the car. I believe it...
 
I should note the Jeep with no brake booster is just a trail only vehicle. I keep it inspected and registered so I don't upset any neighbors by having an unlicensed vehicle sitting in the yard. This is a vehicle that neither gets driven on a road nor over 15MPH. The last time it touched a public road was crossing from one plot of land to another across a Pennsylvania state highway.

The air metering system affects how it runs, but it wouldn't affect brake booster performance. I cap off the vacuum line so I'm not drawing in unfiltered air in a harsh environment.
 
https://www.procomracing.com/

https://www.procomracing.com/appointments-oenlx

I wrote to them the following:

subaru.webp

Hi. Okay, I had an engine swap completed in my car. It had an EJ25, it now has an EJ20 in there. *Everything is running fine* My concern is about the fuel trims under load, is there any way some sort of adjustment to the fuel maps could be made so that my EJ20 isn't the same fuel as an EJ25? My car is a MAP setup.

I am the gentleman that pulled into the bay an hour ago and was told about the Contactless lol.

I hope there is something we can do!? :D
 
... Ehhh.

Latest reply: (from ProCom)

I see what you mean now. You're looking for a tuner for the car. Unfortunately, we only tune via the Cobb AccessPort and do not offer Opensource tuning (i.e. directly flashing the stock ECU). Furthermore, I don't often deal with swaps so I'm likely not the best guy for you here. We stick to what we know, and I don't like to stray too far from where we're comfortable.
 
Figures.

Definitely need to find a shop comfortable with doing Subaru re-flashes.

Now I'm liking that Stage 1 from the place you found again lol.

Not for "MASSIVE HRSPRS" lol, no.. but because, if that one can eat up all that extra fuel under load, then that also would meet the goal...

That was an EXCELLENT explanation of how MAF and MAP are different this morning, by the way. Absolutely outstanding.
 
I'm also a little interested in Opensource now.

Thinking, thinking....
 
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