OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Exactly.
JT20's Subaru
- Thread starter JT20
- Start date
Exactly.
OK here we go.
#1 I'm sure you've already gotten some sound advice so you should probably take at least some of it under advisement
#2 I'm not going to go back through all the threads and try to figure it all out.
#3 Understand i know zip about Subarus specific stuff except that they have a reputation for popping head gaskets like i pop ibuprofen (with is to say a lot)
The ECU: if i knew i had a problem and i thought the ECU would fix it id probably risk it, but understand 60 bucks isn't a lot of money in the grand scheme of things to me, i can afford to have a 60.00 useless ECU laying around, can you?
Understand i'm not trying to be mean, i just call em like i see them.
So ask your self a few questions:
- What are you hoping to accomplish?
- Cruise light:is it even supposed to have one
- Fuel :true the ECU is set up for a 2.5, but do we know it can't pull enough fuel out off the O2 sensors to compensate? Does the Check engine light work, does it have codes? Whats the fuel trim look like?
- I seem to recall the subie guys saying you had to swap some parts, do you know the swapped parts will work with the JDM ECU?
- It ain't as simple as just buying something to reprogram the ECU yourself unless someone has already done the home work..
- Are you sure this install is a proper swap or was it a hack, what exactly was done?
You've got 2 cars, one of which you don't need, I recognize in your local the AWD could be an advantage assuming the car is running, but given a choice between a somewhat unknown but relatively unmodified (unmolested) J30 and a somewhat unknown Subaru with a oddball engine swap of questionable pedigree i would run so fast from that Subaru it would make you think of the opening scenes of cannon ball run.... I'm sorry, but you are ill equipped to deal with the oddities of non standard configuration swap both from a knowledge and funding stand point.... Again, this isn't a jab, it is just the truth... yes we will help you but help over the internet and a willingness to learn will only get you so far, and it will get you a lot further on something that is not "messed with"...
I'm not mad at you at all.
And I understand, there's been a LOT on info and came Fast and Furious.
Maybe tomorrow morning, I can give a more concise information update... Short version: K I thought the Subaru was gonna be a
and never run right again, enter Infiniti. Now the Subie is maybe redeeming itself... sure seems like it. So does JT20 have a Man Toy now...More in the morning.
I would post more now, but, with my work, that would turn into a mess. So. After I wake up tomorrow.
You make some excellent points.. I can address them in the morning.
Here is the Infiniti thread
The last two pages are where we are... Hood shocks, belt, pulley all came,yes I have the originals,and fuses checked, they are fine, radio doesn't power on. The Infiniti thread is the place for that.
You make some excellent points.. I can address them in the morning.
Here is the Infiniti thread
JT20's running Infiniti J30 condition assessment and maintenance thread
2403? Yeah, you could use some new tires, but figure out what else the car needs and tackle the most critical items first. It may not be tires. I think they were gone by the mid 2000s. So we can guess that these are pretty old, though I suspect given how they look, and how much tread they...
bobistheoilguy.com
The last two pages are where we are... Hood shocks, belt, pulley all came,yes I have the originals,and fuses checked, they are fine, radio doesn't power on. The Infiniti thread is the place for that.
JHZR2
Staff member
I’m not seeeing a MAF sensor there. The Subaru forum, not the one tuner, seemed very inspiring.
Id write back to the tuner, note that you don’t have an MAF, include the underhood pic, and ask if they can fix the fuel maps.
I’d also post the question on the Subaru forum of who they recommend to record/tune ECUs.
Why don’t you also stop by at Procom racing in Toms River at some point and have a chat. It’s not tuning like they usually do, but if your money is green...
www.procomracing.com
It seems it is possible to do tunes remotely, but I didn’t look at what other kit you need to make it all work. Might be a risky choice.
www.boostedperformancetuning.com
Id write back to the tuner, note that you don’t have an MAF, include the underhood pic, and ask if they can fix the fuel maps.
I’d also post the question on the Subaru forum of who they recommend to record/tune ECUs.
Why don’t you also stop by at Procom racing in Toms River at some point and have a chat. It’s not tuning like they usually do, but if your money is green...
Procom Racing | New Jersey | Tuning and Performance
We are a tuning and performance shop in Toms River, NJ specializing in dyno tuning for Subaru, Mitsubishi Evo, and Nissan GTR, engine building, fabrication, wheel alignments and much more. We have years of tuning experience with Cobb accessport and protuning.
www.procomracing.com
It seems it is possible to do tunes remotely, but I didn’t look at what other kit you need to make it all work. Might be a risky choice.
Subaru EJ Stage 1 | boosted-performance
This option is for doing a remote (email) tune on a completely stock Subaru with an EJ25 or EJ20 engine. Estimated power:270-280 whp / 290-300 wtrq depending on fuel type
www.boostedperformancetuning.com
I’m not seeeing a MAF sensor there. The Subaru forum, not the one tuner, seemed very inspiring.
Id write back to the tuner, note that you don’t have an MAF, include the underhood pic, and ask if they can fix the fuel maps.
I’d also post the question on the Subaru forum of who they recommend to record/tune ECUs.
Why don’t you also stop by at Procom racing in Toms River at some point and have a chat. It’s not tuning like they usually do, but if your money is green...
Procom Racing | New Jersey | Tuning and Performance
We are a tuning and performance shop in Toms River, NJ specializing in dyno tuning for Subaru, Mitsubishi Evo, and Nissan GTR, engine building, fabrication, wheel alignments and much more. We have years of tuning experience with Cobb accessport and protuning.
It seems it is possible to do tunes remotely, but I didn’t look at what other kit you need to make it all work. Might be a risky choice.
Subaru EJ Stage 1 | boosted-performance
This option is for doing a remote (email) tune on a completely stock Subaru with an EJ25 or EJ20 engine. Estimated power:270-280 whp / 290-300 wtrq depending on fuel type
Yes!!! LOCAL SHOP!!
I suppose we are on the right tracck..
I AM super curious why the online people OVERKILL found thought I had a MAF. I can at least understand, look at my engine and say,"THAT'S NOT A MAF! THATS MAP" now. Small steps. Big things start small.
Okag awesome...
JHZR2
Staff member
I suspect it will cost $250 or maybe more to tune it... but probably worth it if you can swing it. The engine should run better, potentially more power, better economy, and will last longer. Since you’re a few months out on any Infiniti decision, it’s good to get this car running reasonably.
^^^^ one more thing before I get in my car and drive home.
This morning, after changing my oil filter from. That white one to FRAM... I got the oil level resting on the F on the dipstick.
Tomorrow morning..it's been cold lately, but I'll look at it.
Still haven't found anything black got contrast but I'm working on it. Oil looks olive color.
Not PowerStroke color.
This morning, after changing my oil filter from. That white one to FRAM... I got the oil level resting on the F on the dipstick.
Tomorrow morning..it's been cold lately, but I'll look at it.
Still haven't found anything black got contrast but I'm working on it. Oil looks olive color.
Not PowerStroke color.
Yep! As usual, you're pretty much spot on.
$2000 and ill drive that Infiniti to the buyer and pretend it never existed. Pulley belt and hood shocks came too. Clean title.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yup, as I suggested either in a previous thread or this one, a competent shop should be able to get a hold of the base table for the smaller engine and modify his accordingly. He just needs the stock tune for the engine he has, a pretty basic endeavour and won't require extensive dyno tuning like a modded engine would.
That's why I think the shop's e-mail was a polite dismissal, if they knew it's MAP lol.
But I don't want to be paranoid. I think JHZR2 has the right idea, and I'm honored he found one that is... Very close to me.
Might even swing by after I look at this dipstick.
Better than changing the oil all the time, I just got this engine..
Well I promised an "update" in the morning, and I am "up" now, I have the morning/early afternoon part of my day to "do whatever" before working so here it is.
Let's try to answer in the order and line asked/suggested/etc.
As to the $60 ECU. Yeah it is tempting. BUT, as mentioned at least twice yesterday (and I agree,) if an ECU can be reprogrammed (Trav said it could be, don't think I didn't see or ignored it. I saw)
then it may very well be
a $60 unnecessary ECU.
(And it's just like car repair, an ECU is almost never your problem, scammy mechanics will tell you it is, it's almost like a test.)
Moving on.
#1 - Yes, that's where we are. Complete with separate Subaru and Infiniti threads!
And I think we've pretty well established.. MAP, not MAF. Okayyyyyyyy
#2 - Yeah that would take awhile lol.
Forward motion. Not backwards. We all get on that page and I think we have many wonderful roads ahead.
#3 - Yeah this was My First Subaru as well, pretty much . And I also had that same thought. My understanding is that any EJ25 will pop a head gasket like dirty jokes or a balloon. It is the EZ series and specifically EJ20 from Japan that won't, the HG issue was from Subaru boring out the EJ20 block slightly to make it an EJ25, resulting in a thinner wall between the cylinder and water jacket, combined with bad HG material about three times over, so, the rest is history and they are now all in on FA engines as of a year or two ago, 2018/19?? .
An EZ30 L.L. Bean is smoother anyway. Then there's an EZ30R and EZ36R.. the EZ30 from an 00-04 won't have HG issues, so, again, yes.
No idea about the EGs although I hear they don't either.
And that's every Subaru/Fuji Heavy Industries U.S.A commercial available engine from, what, 1991 on forward ?
Moving on.
I actually can afford a $60 ECU "Just laying around." I have a straight rule (tool) I have laying around I used one time on a cylinder head that I don't need anymore that I can sell if there was interest that cost more than that. But if it's going to be more complicated, and it is.. I would check the "Program my ECU?" route first.
Now, as to those few questions:
1.1 - The CRUISE (that's still not the right color. Moving on) light, the jury is still out and no verdict yet returned, so I enlisted and enacted some help, it's too cold outside and I have too much to do this morning to go out with my flashlight and examine my dash like a police officer on the side of the road. https://www.subaruoutback.org/threa...supposed-to-have-a-green-cruise-light.528749/
1.2 - Excellent set of questions.
- I too am "optimistic" that maybe it (O2/ECU etc) can "pull enough fuel" (fuel cut, fuel trim) so as to not be (drastically) over-fueling the engine. I don't know that for a fact but I would hope, and just maybe, as I've seen FT's say ~25% (maybe 18%, been awhile since I watched South Main Auto and Pine Hollow Diagnostics and ScannerDanner etc) that maybe it's keeping it in check? I agree we could still call that "Out of whack."
FTs are "supposed " to be zero, but anything operating safely for the engine i'm fine with.
Moving on
- Yes CEL works.
- Only code it throws is the P0420 every 150 miles or so. No other codes. Nada.
- Don't know what the fuel trims look like.
- Would be interested to find out.
2. The Subie guys and saying what had to be swapped. This was figured out in short order when I first got the car and it was smoking like a freight train. He left off something or .. I'm not even exactly sure, but that led to the PowerStroke Diesel looking oil and AFAIK its NOT the JDM ECU... Leading to all the questions.
As far as I know, it is the outside of the USDM EJ25 on top of the EJ20 JDM "long block" (heads and block) do I have that right, they probably swapped the flexplate and timing gears as they were supposed to.
Slightly unrelated: I've seen a guy say he welded the entire old manifold of his stuff onto a new EJ22 engine and put it in his Outback because he was sick of his EJ25.
I can't find that video quickly. I saw it when I was researching this, and decided I din't want to replace an old, broken EJ25 with another old just not yet broken one that would (likely) soon give me problems. But for right this moment, I have not located it. It was interesting, so maybe I will at some point in time later (I have to go look now.) My car probably got the below done to it. Note even the color is the same, and there are about two or three videos like this on YouTube.
3. That much I know.
4. With this guy? .. It's really hard to say. He seems to do really good work on Subarus and Imports, and a part of me is surprised he isn't reading this whole ordeal about his work LOL so... I'm speaking generally.. I did stop by several times, and he admitted to me he used the videos as a guide (there is one where there is some strong language so I'm not sure I want to post it here, a lot of F-bombs, but it discusses more the timing that needs to be swapped over. He watched that one too)
So.. I basically have a brand new engine in this car, as of course it got a new timing belt with the timing gears off.. it's just about as new as it can be under there. I reflected the mileages and dates in my signature.
I may have time to visit Procom, let me go and eat breakfast now, my schedule just got VERY busy although.. If I can keep everything copacetic, good things ahead.
(Oh yeah.. the Infiniti was purchased because, as mentioned yesterday, I thought the Subaru may have turned out to be a
or that I was going to either junk or try to (futilely) sell, and it has been surprising me in that it is not. DuckRyder.. You mention you would run away from the Subaru so fast.. Well, I originally did or was inclined to agree with you. But I decided, "I've been through so much.. Give it one more shot." Now, although it is SLOW (it still drives fine in all but the most aggressive of taking off from lights, and those pesky Nissans that tailgate ya, it can't move fast enough for them) it's turning out to be.. not bad of a car. I say all that to say, maybe the Infiniti can be my "one nice thing" I have. I think maybe I earned it. I know, some are saying, No, that's not how that goes... Worst case scenario is it lives in the garage.. I am pushing 40 anfd have almost not a **** thing to myself, you know. So there is a case to be made here.) With that, I hit Post Reply and go start my day.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
On the O2 thing, I believe I already explained this to you, but it's not just as easy as the O2's pulling fuel via the trims, which I expect the enrichment would be outside the range of adjustment for at anything beyond very light load anyways, but I've got a few minutes, so I'll try and explain it again:
An engine's fuel consumption for power produced is called BSFC. Brake-Specific Fuel Consumption. This is not universal, some engines are more or less efficient than others but for the sake of this discussion, since both engines are SOHC Subaru boxer engines let's assume that the BSFC figures are the same for both engines.
On a MAF equipped car the ECM looks at the volume of air consumed and matches it with the fuel value it sees in the table, this is how it discerns load (air consumption). So displacement doesn't matter, it knows the air volume and can subsequently align the fuel accordingly.
On a MAP (Speed Density) equipped car load is determined from manifold vacuum, or rather, the lack thereof. This means the ECM fuels based on a table for a given alignment of vacuum, temperature and RPM.
So, at idle, both engines are going to have very close BSFC's. As you increase load, the distance between the program and the anticipated BSFC will widen. Why? Because let's say for the sake of argument your 2.5L made 160HP at WOT at 4,500RPM. The fuel table would be configured to properly satisfy the enrichment requirements of 160HP. Now, let's say we've swapped in an engine that makes 110HP at WOT at 4,500RPM. The engine is still being provided with fuel to feed 160HP because it only looks at load (vacuum), RPM and temperature to determine the fuelling requirements. Also, HEGO input is typically ignored under WOT and it just operates out of base table.
So, your O2's will be switching and functioning under light load where the table is reasonably close and the trims will likely be able to compensate. But when you get on it, it will over fuel significantly because it's trying to satisfy the BSFC requirements of a 1/2L larger engine that produced more HP.
Does that make sense?
An engine's fuel consumption for power produced is called BSFC. Brake-Specific Fuel Consumption. This is not universal, some engines are more or less efficient than others but for the sake of this discussion, since both engines are SOHC Subaru boxer engines let's assume that the BSFC figures are the same for both engines.
On a MAF equipped car the ECM looks at the volume of air consumed and matches it with the fuel value it sees in the table, this is how it discerns load (air consumption). So displacement doesn't matter, it knows the air volume and can subsequently align the fuel accordingly.
On a MAP (Speed Density) equipped car load is determined from manifold vacuum, or rather, the lack thereof. This means the ECM fuels based on a table for a given alignment of vacuum, temperature and RPM.
So, at idle, both engines are going to have very close BSFC's. As you increase load, the distance between the program and the anticipated BSFC will widen. Why? Because let's say for the sake of argument your 2.5L made 160HP at WOT at 4,500RPM. The fuel table would be configured to properly satisfy the enrichment requirements of 160HP. Now, let's say we've swapped in an engine that makes 110HP at WOT at 4,500RPM. The engine is still being provided with fuel to feed 160HP because it only looks at load (vacuum), RPM and temperature to determine the fuelling requirements. Also, HEGO input is typically ignored under WOT and it just operates out of base table.
So, your O2's will be switching and functioning under light load where the table is reasonably close and the trims will likely be able to compensate. But when you get on it, it will over fuel significantly because it's trying to satisfy the BSFC requirements of a 1/2L larger engine that produced more HP.
Does that make sense?
