KlooksKleek, the SM was the last API Certification, if I am correct. Every few years oils are re-certified. Yes, it may still be found on the shelves, kinda unlikely though.
Is Toyota 0W-20 SN made in heaven?
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Originally Posted By: shell_user
KlooksKleek, the SM was the last API Certification, if I am correct. Every few years oils are re-certified. Yes, it may still be found on the shelves, kinda unlikely though.
Thank you, shell, good to know that what I'll likely find currently stocked is the lighter SN version, but I'll still check the label.
KlooksKleek, the SM was the last API Certification, if I am correct. Every few years oils are re-certified. Yes, it may still be found on the shelves, kinda unlikely though.
Thank you, shell, good to know that what I'll likely find currently stocked is the lighter SN version, but I'll still check the label.
Yeah, you can check the label also. Sorry if I responded before Caterham, just sharing what I know. You may find some oils in clearance sections of Autozone and AAP that is SM. Some members here have had that luck.
adam
adam
API SN improves or maintains every specification from SM, including fuel economy, cleaning, etc.; therefore, as a general rule, the SN version of an oil should outperform the SM version of the same oil.
The better performance of the SN oils is achieved by a combination of improved base oil and the new "SN additive packs," the latter of which are sold by Infineum, Lubrizol, Oronite, Afton, etc.
The better performance of the SN oils is achieved by a combination of improved base oil and the new "SN additive packs," the latter of which are sold by Infineum, Lubrizol, Oronite, Afton, etc.
Thanks for the clarification Gokhan, sorry if I messed it up.
adam
adam
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The SN PP 5W-20 is the lightest 5W-20 oil available in the States, lighter than some 0W-20's...
Is SN PP 5w20 lighter than M1 AFE 0w20?
The SN PP 5W-20 is the lightest 5W-20 oil available in the States, lighter than some 0W-20's...
Is SN PP 5w20 lighter than M1 AFE 0w20?
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No problem, just wanted to explain the relation of SN with respect to SM. Basically API improves the oil specs every five years or so after extensive collaboration efforts with the additive companies and oil blenders, and they come up with new additive packs for the new oil spec.
Base oils change a little but the additive packs do. The additive packs are what make an oil SN, SM, SL, CJ-4, etc. Some people think that the new additive packs concentrate more on catalyst protection than wear protection, but in reality the specs on wear haven't changed from SM to SN, while many other specs, such as cleaning, improved. In fact, contrary to what many people believe, the SN and SM oils offer better wear protection than the ZDDP-loaded SJ and SL oils. Refer to the API brochure at this link for the list of the API specs for the oil categories:
http://www.infineum.com/Pages/ACEAandAPITables.aspx
The long story short, the latest API spec will give you the best performance -- don't look for older specs left in the shelves or made by obscure companies. API doesn't even license some of the older specs anymore. Perhaps, arguably, the only exceptions could be some antique cars with flat tappets, which could (arguably) benefit from ZDDP-loaded oils of the past, such as API SF. This is probably not necessarily the case though -- with the latest moly additives such as the trinuclear moly, as well as other compounds, the additive companies can formulate antiwear additives with smaller amounts of ZDDP that offer more wear protection than the oils that contain high doses of ZDDP. It looks like the 800 ppm maximum phosphorus in the SN/SM specs is enough for these oils to outperform the previous, SL/SJ specs, thanks to the newer moly and other compounds that enhance the antiwear properties of ZDDP. Too much ZDDP would probably make things worse through increased friction, which results in increased wear. It would also lead to increased deposits.
Base oils change a little but the additive packs do. The additive packs are what make an oil SN, SM, SL, CJ-4, etc. Some people think that the new additive packs concentrate more on catalyst protection than wear protection, but in reality the specs on wear haven't changed from SM to SN, while many other specs, such as cleaning, improved. In fact, contrary to what many people believe, the SN and SM oils offer better wear protection than the ZDDP-loaded SJ and SL oils. Refer to the API brochure at this link for the list of the API specs for the oil categories:
http://www.infineum.com/Pages/ACEAandAPITables.aspx
The long story short, the latest API spec will give you the best performance -- don't look for older specs left in the shelves or made by obscure companies. API doesn't even license some of the older specs anymore. Perhaps, arguably, the only exceptions could be some antique cars with flat tappets, which could (arguably) benefit from ZDDP-loaded oils of the past, such as API SF. This is probably not necessarily the case though -- with the latest moly additives such as the trinuclear moly, as well as other compounds, the additive companies can formulate antiwear additives with smaller amounts of ZDDP that offer more wear protection than the oils that contain high doses of ZDDP. It looks like the 800 ppm maximum phosphorus in the SN/SM specs is enough for these oils to outperform the previous, SL/SJ specs, thanks to the newer moly and other compounds that enhance the antiwear properties of ZDDP. Too much ZDDP would probably make things worse through increased friction, which results in increased wear. It would also lead to increased deposits.
Thanks for that valuable info Gokhan
adam
adam
Originally Posted By: mshu7
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The SN PP 5W-20 is the lightest 5W-20 oil available in the States, lighter than some 0W-20's...
Is SN PP 5w20 lighter than M1 AFE 0w20?
No and certainly not at sub zero temp's, but at normal start-up temp's and at operating temp's there is likely little difference in viscosity between the two oils.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The SN PP 5W-20 is the lightest 5W-20 oil available in the States, lighter than some 0W-20's...
Is SN PP 5w20 lighter than M1 AFE 0w20?
No and certainly not at sub zero temp's, but at normal start-up temp's and at operating temp's there is likely little difference in viscosity between the two oils.
These are from the datasheets, except from the VOA posted here for the TGMO:
Code:
Oil (SN) 40 C, low-shear 100 C, low-shear 150 C, high-shear (HTHS)
M1 0W-20 44.8 (cSt) 8.7 (cSt) 2.7 (cP)
PP 0W-20 42.8 8.39 2.6
PP 5W-20 45.34 8.56 2.6
TGMO 0W-20 37.38 8.54 ?
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-20_Advanced_Fuel_Economy.aspx
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007054939_201202271153.pdf
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2450684&page=1
Look how great the viscosity of TGMO is at 40 C. You want this number to be as small as possible for best performance, fuel economy, and engine protection. I personally prefer slightly higher 150 C HTHS viscosity for added confidence in wear protection. We don't have that number for TGMO.
Also note that these are fresh-oil viscosities and don't account for oil shear, which happens as early as within the first 1,000 miles of the OCI. Pennzoil Platinum shears somehwat. M1 probably shears less. I don't know about TGMO. Too much shear can reduce the HTHS viscosity too much, which could lead to engine wear or even damage. Of course, too high HTHS viscosity reduces the fuel economy and horsepower significantly.
Code:
Oil (SN) 40 C, low-shear 100 C, low-shear 150 C, high-shear (HTHS)
M1 0W-20 44.8 (cSt) 8.7 (cSt) 2.7 (cP)
PP 0W-20 42.8 8.39 2.6
PP 5W-20 45.34 8.56 2.6
TGMO 0W-20 37.38 8.54 ?
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-20_Advanced_Fuel_Economy.aspx
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007054939_201202271153.pdf
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2450684&page=1
Look how great the viscosity of TGMO is at 40 C. You want this number to be as small as possible for best performance, fuel economy, and engine protection. I personally prefer slightly higher 150 C HTHS viscosity for added confidence in wear protection. We don't have that number for TGMO.
Also note that these are fresh-oil viscosities and don't account for oil shear, which happens as early as within the first 1,000 miles of the OCI. Pennzoil Platinum shears somehwat. M1 probably shears less. I don't know about TGMO. Too much shear can reduce the HTHS viscosity too much, which could lead to engine wear or even damage. Of course, too high HTHS viscosity reduces the fuel economy and horsepower significantly.
The new Idemitsu made Mazda 0W-20 has a KV40 of 35cSt and for the Sustina 0W-20 it's 32.69cSt.
As a class 20wt oils don't shear much and the 229 VI Sustina exhibited zero shear in a VOA and 10,400 mile UOA recently posted.
Even with massive fuel dilution like the almost unheard of 7% in a '06 Civic running TGMO 0W-20 that thinned the oil KV100 spec' down to 6.6cSt still gave a good UOA report; see below:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2622514#Post2622514
As a class 20wt oils don't shear much and the 229 VI Sustina exhibited zero shear in a VOA and 10,400 mile UOA recently posted.
Even with massive fuel dilution like the almost unheard of 7% in a '06 Civic running TGMO 0W-20 that thinned the oil KV100 spec' down to 6.6cSt still gave a good UOA report; see below:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2622514#Post2622514
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
The oil has a nauseatingly strong odor I've never experienced with any other oil.
Just bought some SN 0w20 from a dealer here. The odor reminds me of the inside of a printing facility. However, it's not as offensive than the worst oil I've ever smelled: Castrol GTX High Mileage.
The oil has a nauseatingly strong odor I've never experienced with any other oil.
Just bought some SN 0w20 from a dealer here. The odor reminds me of the inside of a printing facility. However, it's not as offensive than the worst oil I've ever smelled: Castrol GTX High Mileage.
I use this stuff and OCI @ 6 months or ~16,000kms and if the majority of driving is highway and outside temps aren't extreme 40 deg C or -40 deg C I'll go to 20K kms without a second thought about it.
It's been said on a video Toyota clip on Youtube an OCI of 10000 miles (10Kmi=16Kkms)
My cars manual states an OCI of 3 months or 8000kms whichever comes first and the filler cap has 5W-20 & 0W-20 labelled on it.
Giggidy Goo!
It's been said on a video Toyota clip on Youtube an OCI of 10000 miles (10Kmi=16Kkms)
My cars manual states an OCI of 3 months or 8000kms whichever comes first and the filler cap has 5W-20 & 0W-20 labelled on it.
Giggidy Goo!
As far as I can see this is just another good synthetic technology oil (HC) and not a real fully synthetic.
The smell must be Pixie dust additive! I must try sniffing my new oil just to see what the high is like.
The smell must be Pixie dust additive! I must try sniffing my new oil just to see what the high is like.
Originally Posted By: zoomie
I use this stuff and OCI @ 6 months or ~16,000kms and if the majority of driving is highway and outside temps aren't extreme 40 deg C or -40 deg C I'll go to 20K kms without a second thought about it.
It's been said on a video Toyota clip on Youtube an OCI of 10000 miles (10Kmi=16Kkms)
My cars manual states an OCI of 3 months or 8000kms whichever comes first and the filler cap has 5W-20 & 0W-20 labelled on it.
Giggidy Goo!
Is that for the FF oil, or are you talking normal service? One short OCI if it is the normal rather than severe service interval.
I use this stuff and OCI @ 6 months or ~16,000kms and if the majority of driving is highway and outside temps aren't extreme 40 deg C or -40 deg C I'll go to 20K kms without a second thought about it.
It's been said on a video Toyota clip on Youtube an OCI of 10000 miles (10Kmi=16Kkms)
My cars manual states an OCI of 3 months or 8000kms whichever comes first and the filler cap has 5W-20 & 0W-20 labelled on it.
Giggidy Goo!
Is that for the FF oil, or are you talking normal service? One short OCI if it is the normal rather than severe service interval.
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Originally Posted By: skyship
Is that for the FF oil, or are you talking normal service? One short OCI if it is the normal rather than severe service interval.
I am unaware of what First Fill (FF) is, I believe I am driving mostly normal service with occasional city driving (severe service AFAIK).
Is that for the FF oil, or are you talking normal service? One short OCI if it is the normal rather than severe service interval.
I am unaware of what First Fill (FF) is, I believe I am driving mostly normal service with occasional city driving (severe service AFAIK).
Originally Posted By: zoomie
Originally Posted By: skyship
Is that for the FF oil, or are you talking normal service? One short OCI if it is the normal rather than severe service interval.
I am unaware of what First Fill (FF) is, I believe I am driving mostly normal service with occasional city driving (severe service AFAIK).
It's the oil that is in a brand new or rebuilt engine and it is very special in terms of anti wear additives. The good owners book or warranty terms say how long it should be left in and that varies with engine type. Never change it early unless the dealer says so, or you can get big trouble with long term ring and cam wear issues.
Nothing wrong with some city driving, but if you are always stuck in traffic or doing very short trips, it is severe service use. A good blast down the highway on a Sunday morning helps a lot to clean things out and get rid of fuel contamination of the oil.
Originally Posted By: skyship
Is that for the FF oil, or are you talking normal service? One short OCI if it is the normal rather than severe service interval.
I am unaware of what First Fill (FF) is, I believe I am driving mostly normal service with occasional city driving (severe service AFAIK).
It's the oil that is in a brand new or rebuilt engine and it is very special in terms of anti wear additives. The good owners book or warranty terms say how long it should be left in and that varies with engine type. Never change it early unless the dealer says so, or you can get big trouble with long term ring and cam wear issues.
Nothing wrong with some city driving, but if you are always stuck in traffic or doing very short trips, it is severe service use. A good blast down the highway on a Sunday morning helps a lot to clean things out and get rid of fuel contamination of the oil.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Gokhan, have you noticed any increase in oil consumption in your high mileage Corolla over the PYB 5W-20 your were running previously?
I've put about 3,500 miles so far. I just checked the oil for the first time, and the level was around 90% between the L and F marks (near F). I am estimating roughly 0.2 quarts of loss in 3,500 miles / 6 months, as it was a little over the F line originally. It's probably mostly due to a minor leak at the oil-pan seal. The answer to your question is no -- consumption, if there is any notable amount to begin with, hasn't changed.
The color is right now dark amber. Contaminants? Oxidation? I don't know.
I will do an OC and a UOA at 5k.
Gokhan, have you noticed any increase in oil consumption in your high mileage Corolla over the PYB 5W-20 your were running previously?
I've put about 3,500 miles so far. I just checked the oil for the first time, and the level was around 90% between the L and F marks (near F). I am estimating roughly 0.2 quarts of loss in 3,500 miles / 6 months, as it was a little over the F line originally. It's probably mostly due to a minor leak at the oil-pan seal. The answer to your question is no -- consumption, if there is any notable amount to begin with, hasn't changed.
The color is right now dark amber. Contaminants? Oxidation? I don't know.
I will do an OC and a UOA at 5k.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
At the last oil change a couple of weeks ago, I filled with Toyota Genuine Motor Oil 0W-20 SN/GF-5 Synthetic. It's made by ExxonMobil in US. I was able to get it for $5.50 a quart after hard negotiation
How did you "negotiate" hardly? With your mafia pal? I spent $9 for my Mobil 1 0w-20 so maybe I should start using the Totota/mobil instead to save cash?
Is it possible Super Synthetic?
At the last oil change a couple of weeks ago, I filled with Toyota Genuine Motor Oil 0W-20 SN/GF-5 Synthetic. It's made by ExxonMobil in US. I was able to get it for $5.50 a quart after hard negotiation
How did you "negotiate" hardly? With your mafia pal? I spent $9 for my Mobil 1 0w-20 so maybe I should start using the Totota/mobil instead to save cash?
Is it possible Super Synthetic?
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Originally Posted By: theaveng
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
At the last oil change a couple of weeks ago, I filled with Toyota Genuine Motor Oil 0W-20 SN/GF-5 Synthetic. It's made by ExxonMobil in US. I was able to get it for $5.50 a quart after hard negotiation
How did you "negotiate" hardly? With your mafia pal? I spent $9 for my Mobil 0w-20 so maybe I should start using the Totota/mobil instead to save cash?
If you can drive to Carson, use the Carson Toyota's Web site to order it through there. They run a Trademotion-powered OEM-parts page and the current price is $5.32 + tax. After you order, you go there and pick it up:
http://www.trademotion.com/parts/index.c...p;siteid=214915
If you don't want to drive there, try printing the above Web page and show it to your local Toyota dealer and demand that they give you the same price and otherwise you will take your business there.
To help with the negotiation, you can also tell them that you will buy 4 (or 5) bottles. You can also ask if you can get additional discount if you bought a whole case of 12.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
At the last oil change a couple of weeks ago, I filled with Toyota Genuine Motor Oil 0W-20 SN/GF-5 Synthetic. It's made by ExxonMobil in US. I was able to get it for $5.50 a quart after hard negotiation
How did you "negotiate" hardly? With your mafia pal? I spent $9 for my Mobil 0w-20 so maybe I should start using the Totota/mobil instead to save cash?
If you can drive to Carson, use the Carson Toyota's Web site to order it through there. They run a Trademotion-powered OEM-parts page and the current price is $5.32 + tax. After you order, you go there and pick it up:
http://www.trademotion.com/parts/index.c...p;siteid=214915
If you don't want to drive there, try printing the above Web page and show it to your local Toyota dealer and demand that they give you the same price and otherwise you will take your business there.
To help with the negotiation, you can also tell them that you will buy 4 (or 5) bottles. You can also ask if you can get additional discount if you bought a whole case of 12.
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