Is Toyota 0W-20 SN made in heaven?

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: eta
what does the pour point from the msds tell us about the quality? I thought this was kind of high for synthetic? Pour Point: -27°C (-17°F).

That's obviously not correct. It also lists the VI from memory at something like 225 which also is not correct.
The MRV -40 degrees of the original Nippon Oil was 18,000cP; not great but not bad. Keep in mind that this oil is not targeted at extreme cold performance but rather simply being very light at more typical start-up temp's.

 

[Garak]

Ignore the pour point from the MSDS. The PDS might have a more accurate pour point. There is absolutely no way that a 0w-20 could have a pour point of -27 C and still pass the MRV and CCV tests. I've seen plenty of 15w-40 conventionals that have lower pour points than -27.

 

[eta]

Has anyone found a pds for this oil that I've missed? Also, am I understanding correctly that one property of the high VI is improved viscometrics at higher temps, i.e. better protection at temp as well as better cold starts etc. ? Thanks.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: eta
Has anyone found a pds for this oil that I've missed? Also, am I understanding correctly that one property of the high VI is improved viscometrics at higher temps, i.e. better protection at temp as well as better cold starts etc. ? Thanks.

BTW eta, welcome to BITOG!
It's very hard to get PDS info on OEM oils.
Attached are VOA's of both the SM ans SN versions of the Mobil made TGMO 0W-20:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2636118#Post2636118

Improved viscometrics applies at all temp's but if you know the HTHSV @ 150C then that of course is an exact viscosity measure at that temperature.
Since the TGMO must have a HTHSV of at least 2.6cP and I'm sure it's no higher than that, all oils with the same HTHSV but a lower VI will be heavier at all temp's below 150C. The difference will be most pronounced at cold temp's like 0C but
if the VI difference is very large like compared to a 5W-20 dino like PYB (VI 150) then the viscosity difference even at room temp's can be as much as 35% which of coursev is a lot.

 

[teddyboy]

Originally Posted By: buster
The average driver will most likely not see the benefits of M1 AFE over TGMO 0w20. So for your average drive, the TGMO might be more valuable. If you were to subject both to extrem cold/heat, you'd start to see the difference. For example, something like the SEQ IIIG or HTO-06 test.

Of all the oils I have tried in the Honda 2.4L over the course of 157,000 miles, M1 AFE 0w20/30 kept the engine the quietest, from my observation. The SN stuff though, NOT SM.


My wife's Camry uses less oil with M1 AFE 0W20 as compared to the Toyota 0W20. While the difference is not huge, it is noticeable.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: eta
Has anyone found a pds for this oil that I've missed?

I actually called ExxonMobil and asked for a PDS. I was told that ExxonMobil does not produce PDS for other brands, even though they may actually manufacture them. He continued that, if we did, Toyota could be unhappy because it could be different specs than they had in mind. He then advised me to contact Toyota for any PDS. I had contacted Toyota earlier, and they had advised me to contact my dealer.

The long story short, PDS for this oil is either destroyed after it's made or it's kept in a locked vault so that neither us nor Toyota can see it.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: eta
Also, am I understanding correctly that one property of the high VI is improved viscometrics at higher temps, i.e. better protection at temp as well as better cold starts etc. ? Thanks.

The viscosity index (VI) is calculated from only two data points: KV @ 40 C and KV @ 100 C. Therefore, colder and hotter temperatures would be an extrapolation. Th extrapolation could be a good one but then may also be a bad one.

For high-temperature protection, the oil shear is probably a better predictor of protection than VI. Permanent oil shear happens because of the viscosity-index improver (VII) polymers permanently breaking down under continued mechanical stress (just as plastics failing under mechanical stress). An oil that shears less -- that is the used-oil KV @ 100 C being not too much lower than the fresh-oil KV @ 100 C -- should protect well in high temperatures for a given viscosity grade.

For really, really cold starts, MRV and CCS are much better prediction of protection and easy starting than the VI.

VI is more related to cold-engine fuel economy and smoother-running cold engine. It should also offer increased protection in a cold engine due to the viscosity being closer to the desired operating-temperature viscosity.

 

[eta]

Thanks, just bought a case last week for $5.25 a qt. for an 09 Ford Focus. Changing oil tomorrow after 10k on the 5w20 Motorcraft syn blend, 35k on the car. Look forward to some good results and will try and extend oci with this oil. Would another virgin sample be of value to Bitog? If it is I can have it done with my uoa? Thanks for everyone's contributions, I've learned alot the last couple months.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: eta
Thanks, just bought a case last week for $5.25 a qt. for an 09 Ford Focus. Changing oil tomorrow after 10k on the 5w20 Motorcraft syn blend, 35k on the car. Look forward to some good results and will try and extend oci with this oil. Would another virgin sample be of value to Bitog? If it is I can have it done with my uoa? Thanks for everyone's contributions, I've learned alot the last couple months.

Nice! I am sure you will like like it. Let us know if you feel a difference.

The main thing about a Blackstone VOA is the cost ($35 including the TBN), but, sure, it would be great if you could post one. The other VOA is from a different lab; so, this would be supplemental.

 

[JDD]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: JDD
Originally Posted By: buster

So, is the Idemitsu (Mazda OEM) 0W-20 a 'superior' product now if the above info is assumed correct? If so, it will be what is going in my Toyota ---as it is already in my Mazda

As Gokhan pointed out the TGMO 0W-20 bares no similarity to any existing Mobil 0W-20 product.
The Idemitsu (Mazda, Mitsubishi and Cdn Honda/Acura OEM) GF-4 0W-20 is the only other OEM 0W-20 on the NA market with a VI of 197 remotely close to that of TGMO and it does contain a lot of moly.
I've run both oils and can tell you in actual service it's considerably heavier than TGMO, both on start-up and at operating temp's. It's also very shear stable.
If you are considering the Idemitsu oil make sure it's the SM GF-4 version and not the GF-5 that Subaru uses. The formulation has completely changed in the SN GF-5 version using a heavier base oil (VI of only 169) and no more moly.

I Just posted earlier today the new Mazda 0W20 SN is out. Just picked up one today. I would really like to know the VI of this new flavor. I have a photo of the front and back of the bottle, but I don't know how to load it to my post. It's still make by Idemitsu and says its formulated for Skyactiv engines and says 'with moly' on the front of the bottle, which I found funny for some reason.

 

[Gokhan]

Update on the ExxonMobil Toyota Genuine 0W-20 SN Synthetic:

The 27-plus-year-old engine's performance has been excellent. It has never run this smooth and fuel-efficient. There is no sign of oil deterioration. I just had a trip to Las Vegas on I-15, which has frequent 6% mountain grades that you have to drive 70 MPH, and despite that and the small engine, the fuel economy was an excellent 34 MPG.

Really pleased and impressed with this oil. I am at about 3,000 miles now with no makeup oil and will do a UOA in a few months.

 

[buster]

In terms of engine responsiveness, the TGMO was the best oil I've used in the Honda. On cold starts, the engine revs more freely and feels less bogged down. The second best would be AFE Mobil 1 0w20/30. This is among all the oils I've used.

I'm sticking with MaxLife in this car, but I do notice a difference on cold starts.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: buster
In terms of engine responsiveness, the TGMO was the best oil I've used in the Honda. On cold starts, the engine revs more freely and feels less bogged down. The second best would be AFE Mobil 1 0w20/30. This is among all the oils I've used.

I'm sticking with MaxLife in this car, but I do notice a difference on cold starts.

But buster, with the all the performance advantages you've just mentioned running the TGMO why go back to a dino 5w-20?
Makes no sense to me.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: buster
In terms of engine responsiveness, the TGMO was the best oil I've used in the Honda. On cold starts, the engine revs more freely and feels less bogged down. The second best would be AFE Mobil 1 0w20/30. This is among all the oils I've used.

I'm sticking with MaxLife in this car, but I do notice a difference on cold starts.

But buster, with the all the performance advantages you've just mentioned running the TGMO why go back to a dino 5w-20?
Makes no sense to me.

I will never go back to dino.

The performance of the TGMO 0W-20 SN synthetic in my engine has been incredible. It's been 3,000 miles and I am still getting the same outstanding fuel economy and the engine has never run this smooth in its life.

Unless your engine is burning oil and you have to do expensive top-offs, using dino makes no sense, given how the synthetics maintain their performance and fuel economy throughout the oil-change interval, along with their many other advantages, such as much higher viscosity index and better engine cleaning.

I haven't checked the oil level since the oil change 3,000 miles ago, but regarding the seals, the minor leak through my oil-pan seals seems to be reduced after switching to the TGMO 0W-20 SN synthetic, in case the reason you are using MaxLife is to reduce leaks.

 

[shell_user]

I plan to either get some of the TGMO 0W20 OIL or use up my QSUD 0W20 and maybe blend it(the QS SYN) with my PP 5W20.

Adam

 

[CATERHAM]

Adam, I think the TGMO 0W-20 should work well in your Civic.
If you're trying to use up the PP 5W-20 you all ready have, especially if it's the heavier SM version, I'd first try returning it for refund or credit. If you can't do that save it for summer use.

 

[shell_user]

Hello Caterham, and the PP 5w20 I have is the SN version. I may use it for summer use honestly.


Thank you Caterham for your advice and knowledge on the subject


Adam

 

[CATERHAM]

The SN PP 5W-20 is the lightest 5W-20 oil available in the States, lighter than some 0W-20's, and is only marginally heavier than PP/QSUD 0W-20, so it's not a bad oil to be stuck with. Nevertheless as mentioned save it for the summer.

 

[shell_user]

Thanks and I didnt know that it was a tad heavier than PP/QSUD 0W20. I plan to follow your advice and use the PP 5W20 in the summer.

thank you again Caterham

Adam

 

[KlooksKleek]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The SN PP 5W-20 is the lightest 5W-20 oil available in the States, lighter than some 0W-20's, and is only marginally heavier than PP/QSUD 0W-20, so it's not a bad oil to be stuck with. Nevertheless as mentioned save it for the summer.


CATERHAM,

Is the SN vs. SM a seasonal blend of PP 5W-20, or is one of them an older product that still might be on the shelves?

I'm planning to purchase PP 5W-20 because you mentioned in previous thread about it being the lightest OTC product in that grade, but this is the first I am learning of SN/SM variants. I definitely want the SN (lighter) version. I just have to look closely at the fine print on the container before purchasing, right?