Is 'most wear at startup' a myth?

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I studied oils since before I started driving in high school. What I found was that right out of the can Name Brand oils labeled as 30 wt. were anything from 5 to 35 wt. Pennzoil was right in the middle of the 30 wt. area and I stuck with that oil for years based on my initial testing.

When 5W-30 came out I used that and when the 0W-30 Mobil 1 came out I used that oil. When I discovered that my Ferrari Maranello was delivered with a 30 wt. oil I went to the 0W-20 Mobil 1. I had it in the Expedition as well.

I grew up in NJ and spent a decade in NC while training in Chapel Hill so I have some cooler weather experience but have been in Florida for the last 15 years.

While known for running thin oils I have had most cars for 80 - 100,000 miles or more until recently. I always felt the cars were just then fully broken in - when I let them go. No car burned oil and all oils were changed when I could see the oil on the stick or at 4,000 miles at most. I have never replaced a battery*, starter, alternator or any part of the engine. I think that changing brake fluid every year keeps that area good as new and replacing coolant properly keeps the radiator and water pump as new. I have kept away from all additives. As a biochemist I can tell you mixing things is way too complicated. Any chemist can throw together additives but making them work correctly is nearly impossible.

Changing things often in the “fluid” department keeps it all working and thinner oils decrease under hood temperatures and battery starting load and therefor alternator charging loads, saving wear on these parts. You have to look at the whole picture. Many cannot put it all together.

HTHS is but one number in a thousand. By itself it means nothing in my book. There are many reasons to use the thinnest oils that give you an acceptable UOA. If the wear is OK why go thicker? About every other aspect is improved with the use of the thinnest oils that do the job in wear protection.

aehaas

Note*: I bought 4 or 5 year batteries and replaced them at 3 or 4 years - before they went. Now I have a tester for batteries and am planning on going for the full warrantied amount or longer. Make sure you put water in the battery every January, even in the “no maintenance” batteries. This is one of the keys to batteries.

My cars are as helicopters. We know how long each part lasts. They should be replaced before they go. I do not have AAA and have never broken down. It is called maintenance. Ask owners of airplanes how often they broke down.

Obviously we here all take care of our cars better than most others. We argue over the smallest things. Think about the other parts of the car though. You will be a better person for it. A car is not just a main bearing.
 
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HTHS is but one number in a thousand. By itself it means nothing in my book.

HTHS is important to carmakers, API, ACEA and ILSAC. Its important to anybody who drives his car at or above normal operating temperatures at most times. If I were to commute just a couple miles, with the engine never getting up to op temp, I'd agree with you on HTHS being practically meaningless -- but then I'd take a bicyle or a beater car anyway.
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Losing sufficient lubrication momntarily at 6200 RPM is certainly causing more damage than the extra wear the engine may suffer during start-up and warming-up if I use a 5W-40 instead of a 0W-20 oil.
 
Wait wait... you're linking improved longevity of alternators, batteries and starters with thin oils? As opposed to what the manufacturer specs, or as opposed to gear oil? As for batteries, I wouldn't add water to my maintenence free Optima.

I wouldn't throw away perfectly good batteries, either. Our "3-year" batteries have a 3 year warranty because we almost never get them back within 3 years. They usually last 4-5 years no problem. Heck, most of the time when I get a defective battery within the warranty period, it has been abused or neglected. But that's another story.
 
A few seconds to let the oil move up from the pan and onto the moving parts of the engine is common sense. 20 seconds is quite a long time actually- try timing your warm up.

On the other hand, idling for 10 minutes in the driveway on cold days is not doing any good - just drive off gently. I kinda agree with the VW and SAAB manuals on that one. Just drive off gently to keep the loading and revs reasonable.

The big variable is engine design to me. Long crank? Long stroke (tall block) engine? High tension valve train? Large bearing journals? Clearances?
 
Before Saab sold to GM the first page of the vehicle operation section in the owners manual said, "Begin driving immediately upon startup so that the engine can reach normal operating temperature as quickly as possible." In the early '90s I seem to recall that this sentiment was repeated within view of the drivers seat.

This coming from a company that decided to build a car because they had a good design for a reliable engine and couldn't put it in an airplane.
 
Good post Dr. Haas. It's somewhat alien for many to buy high quality stuff ..and take very good care of it. We tend to look at it from a perspective of "will it last until I can get another". I think it's more of a "consumer culture" thing. One could argue that you can afford to have such attitudes ..making maintenance (not just cars) a lifestyle type thing ..but I would also argue that you, of all people, could probably afford not to. Yet you do it anyway.
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Good post Dr. Haas. It's somewhat alien for many to buy high quality stuff ..and take very good care of it. We tend to look at it from a perspective of "will it last until I can get another". I think it's more of a "consumer culture" thing. One could argue that you can afford to have such attitudes ..making maintenance (not just cars) a lifestyle type thing ..but I would also argue that you, of all people, could probably afford not to. Yet you do it anyway.

Well said.
 
Dr. T

When the Euros made some big inroads to the Americas in the late 70's they had mixed results. For the continentally aclimated, the MB's and BMW's (Volvo, etc.) were 25 year (or more) cars. Unheard of in the traditional American culture. They were, by our standards, extremely high maintenance. Although they were (usually) better designed and better built, they required far more care then domestic iron. We could not adapt to this concept and, as you can see, the Euros have turned into high tech versions of our throw away domestic iron. The MB's are no longer hand stroked with a glove to check the finish (Dr. Haas's Maybach is probably an exception) ..etc..etc. My BMW came with a comprehensive list of maintenance tasks that would have made it last a lifetime if it was adhered to when used in conjunction with the support that was available from the dealerships of the time. They thrived on continued service to older models ..since sales, up until that point, were never a major part of the business. Our culture even managed to corrupt that concept
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When my cousin (an older cousin that was an OB) sold his 68 280 SE convertable in 1975, it looked and performed as it did when he picked it up in Germany from the factory (ordered here - delivery taken there while at an international coference).

The good doctor's post is almost a mirror of an column in Car&Driver that I read in the mid 70's. Right down to the preemptive replacement of the altenator, stating how the utiltity of a part that has never failed is soon forgotten by most of us ..and it is far better to replace anything before it fails in service. The clues are usually there for those who wish to find them and have the ability to integrate what they're saying.

We're an odd culture when it comes to autos. Our older cars ...timing off 10° either way ..idle 500+/- ..who cares? Then a brief session of trying to make cars ran bad if they weren't in tune (after running early-70's) ..we didn't care and drove them anyway
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..then a constant evolution of removing the owner from the maintenance loop. "Since we can't get them to keep their cars up properly ..we'll make cars that will do it without them." type thing. Have them throw them away every so often and start over.

It's the curse of the bourgeoisie mideel clahass. The consuming consumer culture. We tend to want to do more ..but rarely doing the best that we can in all things just because the list (of 'things') shrinks.
 
"The clues are usually there for those who wish to find them and have the ability to integrate what they're saying."

How so very true. While in medical school a neurosurgery prof cursed the developing CAT scanner. Residents got the scan first to diagnose the problem instead of examining the patient then getting a scan to confirm the clinical diagnosis.

Its the same in the automotive world. The new guys run for the computer instead of listening to the car, the customer and doing a test drive. An alternator, a belt, a battery can have symptoms. A new sound, a drop of fluid, even just a funny feeling may tell you of impending problems. As Gary states...

aehaas
 
I joined this site to better understand a component (oil) of a larger system (engine) so that I would be able to better perform my job. I contract to a group of Pathologists based in central TN. The items I spend my day with require immediate attention and lives depend on these things getting to AP.

As a sole proprietorship I do not have the option of breaking down. I routinely put 300,000 miles on a given vehicle and perform both light and heavy maintenance myself to cut costs.

As Mr. Allan put so very eloquently; the symptoms of failure of all those parts listed above, alternators, belts, a batteries, starters, universal and CV joints, etc., are easy to pick up on if the driver is in tune with his or her automobile. Most are easy to replace given proper tools and some small amount of mechanical ability. Yet so many people would prefer pay a stupid tax and trade a perfectly good vehicle because the warrantee is up rather than take the time to understand and maintain it.

I am seriously disheartened to hear that so many people have taken up with the "disposable car" argument. Some people can count their investment in an automobile as 25% of the value of their home and yet are not willing to maintain it.

Would you sell your house if your hot water heater began to function inefficiently?
 
What Dr. Hass say's has its merits. In today's trucking industry...keeping the trucks running and dependable is critical to delivering the goods=pay time. If you track a fleet of rigs with the same specs, when a part fails you do data entry on the mileage/and or time the part failed. After a certain amount of data starts to show a failure rate mileage it is cost effective to replace that part before that part fails and leaves the rig stranded which equals lost customers, possible freight damage, and expensive tow,driver wage, and other problems. This equals=reduced profits. Lets use a turbocharger for example. If the data shows that the turbocharger fails at 350,000 miles and this is a common problem, you replace that turbocharger at 325,000 miles thus saving huge dollar sums in revenue and customer service creditability.

On the other hand...I run all my items until they fail and do inspections and try to catch failures before they happen. I do get stranded from time to time, but heck I have a set of batteries in my pickup that are over 10 years old.
 
Re: the whole picture...it's not that simple.

For one, manuf. only tell you basic replaceable items eg. spark plug intervals. However, they don't tell you that the 'alternator' or starter needs replacing after a certain mileage.

Secondly, you cannot simply replace things 'before' they go because you never know when they will be 'going'. I'm at 225k miles on my BMW. The first starter lasted over 150k miles. Now I need to replace the second one after just 75k. Yet, the exhaust is OEM after 225k and 11 years...

So if you've never replace any 'other' parts on the engine, you haven't owned the car long enough. Again for those, the cheapest 5-30 or 5-20 or anything else will suffice just fine....
 
There's practical and then there's fantasy....on a recent flight I was on from Atlanta to Sao Paulo, Brazil (9.5 hrs.) the pilot comes on the intercom after about 4 hrs. into the flight to say the plane's 'weather radar' has stopped working and we are headed back to Atlanta!!! So 8 hours later, we're back in Atlanta and then taking off again for the 9.5 hr. flight to Sao Paulo 1.5 hrs. after the item was fixed/replaced. Why wasn't it replaced before it broke? Forget trucks, this was a flight.

Answer: Because you can't always predict a breakdown or every single component as cars become increasingly complex as we advance from some point in the past (eg. 80's) to today.
 
Sure there can be catastrophic failures without warning in electronic systems. I would say that if I was an avionics expert and routinely monitored such systems, that I would begin to see telltale indicators of when such systems were in some state of degradation. It may take longer to figure out then the system/item has life left in it ..but the thought process is still in place.

Basically it all boils down to your intimacy with the machine. It usually starts with a "hmm..something is 'unright'." ..and you may not have a clue on how to determine what the 'unrightness' is ..but the main component of it is the sensitivity and how critical you are of your environment.

I can understand why some can be preoccupied with other matters. In my mindscape, several "unright" things are put on a back burner for "slow processing" ..with nothing more than a need for an explanation to allow me to ponder them some more when I can afford the time. They're puzzles ..and their solution is their own reward. I'm not the type that can just say "why ask why?" and leave it at that. Even in my ignorance I will dwell upon puzzles until I can integrate them in my realm of understanding. I may not succeed ..but often when I do, I've gotten a more thorough education in the process.
 
Well, then you have the idiosyncracies that occur with many machines and electronics. Some of which I'm sure are built into products we buy every day. Windows `98? Chrysler products (esp. `80's).

Did you never tell a friend or your wife "it's supposed to do that". What about "it's normal to burn 1qt or oil every 1k mi". The funny thing is sometimes these things are true....should the whole engine be replaced?

Then there are the times that a certain item does something quirky like flicker or run on low power ONCE in it's life and never again. Replace it? Or it runs fine until eg. it's loaded a certain way or requires 'known' manipulation by the operator to work eg. turn a knob a certain way. Did you never operate a machine that you could have sworn it knew it was Monday? Replace those as well?

If I replaced every item when I 'thought' it was going south, I'd 1) go mental worrying about the next thing to go and 2) be rich.
 
My limited experience with electronics (automotive, marine, and home) is that there are two obvious indicators of impending failure...

1) You turn it on and nothing happens
2) It begins to do something new, and refuses to do any of the old stuff.

Either way, I've never noticed much warning. That's why the best electronics are the ones that you have spares for and can be pulled out and replaced the fastest.
 
Hello?

My computer that you sold me is buzzing and making a knocking noise every time I turn it on.

Easy. The cpu fan fell off and is propelling itself around the interior of the case knocking into stuff.

Hello?

My computer automatically reboots about every 5 minutes.

Easy. The power supply drops out. You need a new one.

My radar unit went south.

Was it a xxxyyzzz? Yes.

Easy. The J92-AB6 board is known for taking a crap on them from time to time. Carry a spare until they get the rework done (if they ever get it done).

Intimacy with the machine.
 
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