I need facts only if possible...
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Originally Posted By: 7777
from what i learned in life,when companies hide their ingredients,obviously they have something to hide and that totally turns me off.
Hiding something doesn't always reflect ill intent.
For one thing, I'm sure Mobil doesn't want to make it easy to copy their chemistry.
Another thing is that their formulations might change based on prevailing conditions among their suppliers. For example, what if their oil uses a lot of PAO and they can't get enough of it to meet demand? The smart thing to do is to have an alternate formulation that meets the same criteria but is made with different stuff. That way you can keep meeting demand at a good price. You have to admit that sounds reasonable, but I'm sure you could also see how that would be difficult to explain to Joe Average.
from what i learned in life,when companies hide their ingredients,obviously they have something to hide and that totally turns me off.
Hiding something doesn't always reflect ill intent.
For one thing, I'm sure Mobil doesn't want to make it easy to copy their chemistry.
Another thing is that their formulations might change based on prevailing conditions among their suppliers. For example, what if their oil uses a lot of PAO and they can't get enough of it to meet demand? The smart thing to do is to have an alternate formulation that meets the same criteria but is made with different stuff. That way you can keep meeting demand at a good price. You have to admit that sounds reasonable, but I'm sure you could also see how that would be difficult to explain to Joe Average.
Originally Posted By: 7777
from what i learned in life,when companies hide their ingredients,obviously they have something to hide and that totally turns me off.
On another note,people who use redline here , are you happy with it?
I don't think any oil companies are hiding their formulas for surreptitious reasons
. OK they aren't doing it for evil reasons, or to screw the customer. It's a competitive business, if a competitor wants to completely reverse engineer a product, well they can, but why should any company just hand out their own formula?
Redline is a great oil, you say they are a Group V oil, I say it and so does Redline. Redline has also said their oils contain some PAO's (Group IV) - I have read 30-40-50% (I don't really know). This does not make it a bad oil, or Redline evil. So that sorta brings me to my point - a true 100% ester oil will be very expensive and essentially completely illogical to run in a street engine for what? Something less the 10K miles?
Now let's get back to the initial question - how many miles will be your OCI? Do you want an API SM oil? How do you drive? Etc...
from what i learned in life,when companies hide their ingredients,obviously they have something to hide and that totally turns me off.
On another note,people who use redline here , are you happy with it?
I don't think any oil companies are hiding their formulas for surreptitious reasons
Redline is a great oil, you say they are a Group V oil, I say it and so does Redline. Redline has also said their oils contain some PAO's (Group IV) - I have read 30-40-50% (I don't really know). This does not make it a bad oil, or Redline evil. So that sorta brings me to my point - a true 100% ester oil will be very expensive and essentially completely illogical to run in a street engine for what? Something less the 10K miles?
Now let's get back to the initial question - how many miles will be your OCI? Do you want an API SM oil? How do you drive? Etc...
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: 7777
Obviously it matters to me.
For me, its very relevant!
I'm not arguing between groups ,I'm just asking if moble1 ep is a group 3, thats it, simple. Now , if you don't know , just say so.
Is it? Why? Providing basis gets you a lot further than just stating that it is obviously important.
If it is the "value proposition", youre doing youirself an injustice... Again, it is the whole package, and it is ever more evident that the add pack is at least as important, if not more important (to some extent at least) than basestock.
So why? What technical based reason makes it important? Help us help you.
Obviously it matters to me.
For me, its very relevant!
I'm not arguing between groups ,I'm just asking if moble1 ep is a group 3, thats it, simple. Now , if you don't know , just say so.
Is it? Why? Providing basis gets you a lot further than just stating that it is obviously important.
If it is the "value proposition", youre doing youirself an injustice... Again, it is the whole package, and it is ever more evident that the add pack is at least as important, if not more important (to some extent at least) than basestock.
So why? What technical based reason makes it important? Help us help you.
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: 7777
from what i learned in life,when companies hide their ingredients,obviously they have something to hide and that totally turns me off.
On another note,people who use redline here , are you happy with it?
I don't think any oil companies are hiding their formulas for surreptitious reasons
. OK they aren't doing it for evil reasons, or to screw the customer. It's a competitive business, if a competitor wants to completely reverse engineer a product, well they can, but why should any company just hand out their own formula?
Redline is a great oil, you say they are a Group V oil, I say it and so does Redline. Redline has also said their oils contain some PAO's (Group IV) - I have read 30-40-50% (I don't really know). This does not make it a bad oil, or Redline evil. So that sorta brings me to my point - a true 100% ester oil will be very expensive and essentially completely illogical to run in a street engine for what? Something less the 10K miles?
Now let's get back to the initial question - how many miles will be your OCI? Do you want an API SM oil? How do you drive? Etc...
I believe profit is behind it all and i don't like to be misled.
I'm not in the dark here and do know the difference between base stocks.
I have a sporty high rev 4 banger that i plan to beat like i stole it and will run it to the ground (never sell it).I plan
on changing oil every 7-8k maybe more.
For me 2$ more wont break the bank. Thanks pablo
Originally Posted By: 7777
from what i learned in life,when companies hide their ingredients,obviously they have something to hide and that totally turns me off.
On another note,people who use redline here , are you happy with it?
I don't think any oil companies are hiding their formulas for surreptitious reasons
Redline is a great oil, you say they are a Group V oil, I say it and so does Redline. Redline has also said their oils contain some PAO's (Group IV) - I have read 30-40-50% (I don't really know). This does not make it a bad oil, or Redline evil. So that sorta brings me to my point - a true 100% ester oil will be very expensive and essentially completely illogical to run in a street engine for what? Something less the 10K miles?
Now let's get back to the initial question - how many miles will be your OCI? Do you want an API SM oil? How do you drive? Etc...
I believe profit is behind it all and i don't like to be misled.
I'm not in the dark here and do know the difference between base stocks.
I have a sporty high rev 4 banger that i plan to beat like i stole it and will run it to the ground (never sell it).I plan
on changing oil every 7-8k maybe more.
For me 2$ more wont break the bank. Thanks pablo
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: brian12
How does Mobil get away with not listing the dino part of their oils under the msds? I see all the other companies have it listed under the hazardous materials section.
dino oils are often used in very low content levels to be a carrier for additive miscibility. They are such a small player that they are effectively irrelevant to the oil, and given that the finished product is tested for cold flow properties, etc., the impact of the din is effectively reflected.
Depending upon how the add pack is defined/described, the dino oil itself may or may not appear in an MSDS.
How does Mobil get away with not listing the dino part of their oils under the msds? I see all the other companies have it listed under the hazardous materials section.
dino oils are often used in very low content levels to be a carrier for additive miscibility. They are such a small player that they are effectively irrelevant to the oil, and given that the finished product is tested for cold flow properties, etc., the impact of the din is effectively reflected.
Depending upon how the add pack is defined/described, the dino oil itself may or may not appear in an MSDS.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: 7777
I believe profit is behind it all and i don't like to be misled.
I'm not in the dark here and do know the difference between base stocks.
Do you? Do you truly know the benefits and issues with each? Group IV and V are not miracle cures, group III has performance benefits too.
Having a group IV/V only basestock does not guarantee better ANYTHING.
Would you prefer $4 of group IV basestock and a $1 add pack in your $5 qt of oil, or a $3.50 basestock and $1.50 worth of add pack in your $5 quart of oil? You may well find that the second beats the first in terms of true wear rates and UOA results... What will your argument be then?
I believe profit is behind it all and i don't like to be misled.
I'm not in the dark here and do know the difference between base stocks.
Do you? Do you truly know the benefits and issues with each? Group IV and V are not miracle cures, group III has performance benefits too.
Having a group IV/V only basestock does not guarantee better ANYTHING.
Would you prefer $4 of group IV basestock and a $1 add pack in your $5 qt of oil, or a $3.50 basestock and $1.50 worth of add pack in your $5 quart of oil? You may well find that the second beats the first in terms of true wear rates and UOA results... What will your argument be then?
Originally Posted By: 7777
from what i learned in life,when companies hide their ingredients,obviously they have something to hide and that totally turns me off.
On another note,people who use redline here , are you happy with it?
If you think any oil company, including Redline, is going to tell you their formulations, then you are deceived. They all have their secrets that they don't want others to know. That ride you bought will last a good long time on any oil if you keep a reasonable OCI.
from what i learned in life,when companies hide their ingredients,obviously they have something to hide and that totally turns me off.
On another note,people who use redline here , are you happy with it?
If you think any oil company, including Redline, is going to tell you their formulations, then you are deceived. They all have their secrets that they don't want others to know. That ride you bought will last a good long time on any oil if you keep a reasonable OCI.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: brian12
How does Mobil get away with not listing the dino part of their oils under the msds? I see all the other companies have it listed under the hazardous materials section.
dino oils are often used in very low content levels to be a carrier for additive miscibility. They are such a small player that they are effectively irrelevant to the oil, and given that the finished product is tested for cold flow properties, etc., the impact of the din is effectively reflected.
Depending upon how the add pack is defined/described, the dino oil itself may or may not appear in an MSDS.
Group 3 is considered well refined patrol (hydrocracked) no, i thought that was the new accepted "syn"..Basiclay I'm looking for the best true syn available under 10$qt
Originally Posted By: brian12
How does Mobil get away with not listing the dino part of their oils under the msds? I see all the other companies have it listed under the hazardous materials section.
dino oils are often used in very low content levels to be a carrier for additive miscibility. They are such a small player that they are effectively irrelevant to the oil, and given that the finished product is tested for cold flow properties, etc., the impact of the din is effectively reflected.
Depending upon how the add pack is defined/described, the dino oil itself may or may not appear in an MSDS.
Group 3 is considered well refined patrol (hydrocracked) no, i thought that was the new accepted "syn"..Basiclay I'm looking for the best true syn available under 10$qt
There is no one answer you are looking for , but M1 5-30EP is a very good oil.
Also the Ams o-30 is great as well, although I haven't used it many here swear by it. And my engines stay very clean even with very high mileage.
Also the Ams o-30 is great as well, although I haven't used it many here swear by it. And my engines stay very clean even with very high mileage.
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Originally Posted By: 7777
from what i learned in life,when companies hide their ingredients,obviously they have something to hide and that totally turns me off.
On another note,people who use redline here , are you happy with it?
You're right. I use Redline and couldn't be happier. You know it's an ester, it has lots of moly and lots of ZDDP.
My engine was already spotless under the valvecover using Amsoil ACD (a great oil) since it was new up to 76,000 miles. I switched to Redline and I thought it wasn't possible but it actually looks cleaner now.
People will say it's not worth it but it's your money and at least you know what you're getting with it. It will protect second to none and keep the engine spotless.
Be careful about putting any kind of faith in UOAs for engine wear. In my experience, they don't mean squat for measuring wear.
from what i learned in life,when companies hide their ingredients,obviously they have something to hide and that totally turns me off.
On another note,people who use redline here , are you happy with it?
You're right. I use Redline and couldn't be happier. You know it's an ester, it has lots of moly and lots of ZDDP.
My engine was already spotless under the valvecover using Amsoil ACD (a great oil) since it was new up to 76,000 miles. I switched to Redline and I thought it wasn't possible but it actually looks cleaner now.
People will say it's not worth it but it's your money and at least you know what you're getting with it. It will protect second to none and keep the engine spotless.
Be careful about putting any kind of faith in UOAs for engine wear. In my experience, they don't mean squat for measuring wear.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: 7777
I believe profit is behind it all and i don't like to be misled.
I'm not in the dark here and do know the difference between base stocks.
Do you? Do you truly know the benefits and issues with each? Group IV and V are not miracle cures, group III has performance benefits too.
Having a group IV/V only basestock does not guarantee better ANYTHING.
Would you prefer $4 of group IV basestock and a $1 add pack in your $5 qt of oil, or a $3.50 basestock and $1.50 worth of add pack in your $5 quart of oil? You may well find that the second beats the first in terms of true wear rates and UOA results... What will your argument be then?
For me the question isn't about a cure its about preventative.
Are you saying redline is just hype?sure not every comp is going to tell you their exact ratio of base stock-additive included,But i believe they should tell you what base stock is included, thats all , and i the consumer can make my own decision. Thanks for the reply
Originally Posted By: 7777
I believe profit is behind it all and i don't like to be misled.
I'm not in the dark here and do know the difference between base stocks.
Do you? Do you truly know the benefits and issues with each? Group IV and V are not miracle cures, group III has performance benefits too.
Having a group IV/V only basestock does not guarantee better ANYTHING.
Would you prefer $4 of group IV basestock and a $1 add pack in your $5 qt of oil, or a $3.50 basestock and $1.50 worth of add pack in your $5 quart of oil? You may well find that the second beats the first in terms of true wear rates and UOA results... What will your argument be then?
For me the question isn't about a cure its about preventative.
Are you saying redline is just hype?sure not every comp is going to tell you their exact ratio of base stock-additive included,But i believe they should tell you what base stock is included, thats all , and i the consumer can make my own decision. Thanks for the reply
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: 7777
I believe profit is behind it all and i don't like to be misled.
I'm not in the dark here and do know the difference between base stocks.
Do you? Do you truly know the benefits and issues with each? Group IV and V are not miracle cures, group III has performance benefits too.
Having a group IV/V only basestock does not guarantee better ANYTHING.
Would you prefer $4 of group IV basestock and a $1 add pack in your $5 qt of oil, or a $3.50 basestock and $1.50 worth of add pack in your $5 quart of oil? You may well find that the second beats the first in terms of true wear rates and UOA results... What will your argument be then?
I think it's VERY safe to assume Redline uses a premium add pack.
You're basing the effectiveness on UOAs which mean nothing for measuring wear.
Give me a grp V ester with a super high HTHS for the 100c viscosity with a great add pack and call it a day. IMO, go big or go home. If I'm going to spend extra money over a basic grpII dino, why not spend it on the best of the best and know what I'm getting.
Originally Posted By: 7777
I believe profit is behind it all and i don't like to be misled.
I'm not in the dark here and do know the difference between base stocks.
Do you? Do you truly know the benefits and issues with each? Group IV and V are not miracle cures, group III has performance benefits too.
Having a group IV/V only basestock does not guarantee better ANYTHING.
Would you prefer $4 of group IV basestock and a $1 add pack in your $5 qt of oil, or a $3.50 basestock and $1.50 worth of add pack in your $5 quart of oil? You may well find that the second beats the first in terms of true wear rates and UOA results... What will your argument be then?
I think it's VERY safe to assume Redline uses a premium add pack.
You're basing the effectiveness on UOAs which mean nothing for measuring wear.
Give me a grp V ester with a super high HTHS for the 100c viscosity with a great add pack and call it a day. IMO, go big or go home. If I'm going to spend extra money over a basic grpII dino, why not spend it on the best of the best and know what I'm getting.
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: 7777
from what i learned in life,when companies hide their ingredients,obviously they have something to hide and that totally turns me off.
On another note,people who use redline here , are you happy with it?
You're right. I use Redline and couldn't be happier. You know it's an ester, it has lots of moly and lots of ZDDP.
My engine was already spotless under the valvecover using Amsoil ACD (a great oil) since it was new up to 76,000 miles. I switched to Redline and I thought it wasn't possible but it actually looks cleaner now.
People will say it's not worth it but it's your money and at least you know what you're getting with it. It will protect second to none and keep the engine spotless.
Be careful about putting any kind of faith in UOAs for engine wear. In my experience, they don't mean squat for measuring wear.
I agree 100% and most likely going with redline,Ive seen it for 9.45qt 5-30 , can it be found cheaper? Also, will be using my normal wix filter, do you recommend any other filter?Thank you
Originally Posted By: 7777
from what i learned in life,when companies hide their ingredients,obviously they have something to hide and that totally turns me off.
On another note,people who use redline here , are you happy with it?
You're right. I use Redline and couldn't be happier. You know it's an ester, it has lots of moly and lots of ZDDP.
My engine was already spotless under the valvecover using Amsoil ACD (a great oil) since it was new up to 76,000 miles. I switched to Redline and I thought it wasn't possible but it actually looks cleaner now.
People will say it's not worth it but it's your money and at least you know what you're getting with it. It will protect second to none and keep the engine spotless.
Be careful about putting any kind of faith in UOAs for engine wear. In my experience, they don't mean squat for measuring wear.
I agree 100% and most likely going with redline,Ive seen it for 9.45qt 5-30 , can it be found cheaper? Also, will be using my normal wix filter, do you recommend any other filter?Thank you
In my very humble opinion, being that Mobil 1 has a hidden ingredient list as opposed to the highly regarded and more open formulation of Red Line, I think the choice is clear. You also said you would be driving this vehicle hard, and that is something right up Red Line's alley. I've used it in many of my vehicles but have nothing of value to add about how it performed since I did no analysis nor long-term usage for the lifetime of any vehicle. I've heard that it MAY not be good for warranty issues because of a lack of certain certifications. Other than that I can think of no reason not to use it.
It was certainly an important question back in 90's when XOM sued Castrol when they secretly changed their formulation of Syntec from what was a GP IV & V based oil to a predominately GP III oil but still called their product a " full or 100% synthetic oil ".
I know there are people on this forum who will never forgive Castrol for that deception and I for one consider it unfortunate that XOM lost the case. But technology doesn't stand still and the advantages of a GP IV over GP III have narrowed considerable although a PAO still will outperform at the temperature extremes.
I believe M1 uses GP III in some of their formulations. For example, on their 5W-30 bottle they no longer claim to lubricate at 205C like they did on their SL bottles. This leads me to conclude that that grade is predominately GP III now as is their 5W-20. But I think their 0W-40 grade is still predominately GP IV. So it does depend upon which M1 product to which you're referring.
I know there are people on this forum who will never forgive Castrol for that deception and I for one consider it unfortunate that XOM lost the case. But technology doesn't stand still and the advantages of a GP IV over GP III have narrowed considerable although a PAO still will outperform at the temperature extremes.
I believe M1 uses GP III in some of their formulations. For example, on their 5W-30 bottle they no longer claim to lubricate at 205C like they did on their SL bottles. This leads me to conclude that that grade is predominately GP III now as is their 5W-20. But I think their 0W-40 grade is still predominately GP IV. So it does depend upon which M1 product to which you're referring.
cool - I've been eyeing the Suzi...
anyway, what are you trying to accomplish? extended drains? the "best" oil at any cost? I dont know if there is a true reason to go redline unless you are racing it.
I believe that M1 EP is mostly a G4 oil, as is Amsoil (except for their XL line)
I'm sure you know that much of the competitiion is mostly G3.
If money is no object, I would go with Amsoil, M1 EP, maybe Redline.
The next tier is Valvoline Syn, Penzz Plat.
anyway, what are you trying to accomplish? extended drains? the "best" oil at any cost? I dont know if there is a true reason to go redline unless you are racing it.
I believe that M1 EP is mostly a G4 oil, as is Amsoil (except for their XL line)
I'm sure you know that much of the competitiion is mostly G3.
If money is no object, I would go with Amsoil, M1 EP, maybe Redline.
The next tier is Valvoline Syn, Penzz Plat.
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