I need facts only if possible...

[Gary Allan]

So since everyone's mind is made up, this thread is getting nowhere. So, let's hold a poll:

-Do you actually know, based upon testing and factual evidence, what the positives and negatives are with group III oils?

by whom?

-Can you quantify a superior oxidative resistance of group III or group IV?

I haven't a clue

-Are you aware of the interactions of water with ester-based oils?

No, but someone here will tell me ..or google will provide
-What basis is there that ZDDP is superior as an ADD to other more modern additives that serve the same purpose?

Because it's so obsessed over. What we haven't heard from is Molakule, Bruce, or some quiet Lubrizol person telling us what is superior to ZDP (at some cost)..the last time I heard animony was years ago as some suggested panacea. Then again, I haven't kept up on the Interesting Articles. Lubrizol should be filling our archives with white papers.

-Have you come to a determination of the optimal moly content for your oil?


Yes. Something less than a full bottle of VSOT in a 4 quart sump. Last UOA was still LEACHING 200ppm after 3 or 4 sumps without any moly in the oil.
-Have you fully characterized the oil temperature profile for your engine to determine what kinds of specific additives and set-up that you need?

Yes. Calm and stable all the time. The coolant thermostat in my exchanged engine struggles to open. If I peak 215f ..it has to be at long idle in hot weather.



Let's ask another question - if I synthesized oil from coal - an F-T GTL oil basestock, would that be better or worse than one synthesized from natural gas? It is very important that you answer this one so I get a feel for how well you actually understand chemistry and the chemical industry.
I don't know. By the time these technologies see wide spread adoption, crude cracking is going to be in retreat. That is, for better or worse, it will be done. It may require some "wrapping around" of other technologies to adapt to our needs.

 

[JHZR2]

Not knocking redline per se, but here is a good post from Tom NJ from a while back, just for everyone to reset upon:
Quote:


POEs help reduce deposits in two ways. First, their higher oxidative stability helps resist deposit formation, and second, their polarity helps dissolve and disperse existing deposits.

The former is meaningful at very high temperatures, such as in jet engines, but may not be apparent in the relatively mild conditions of a car engine. Plus the anti-oxidant additives play an important role.

The latter can help clean a car engine, all else being equal, but is only one factor as the detergent and dispersant additives also play an important role.

POEs add a cleaning factor to a motor oil, but once again it is the total formulation that really matters.

Great base oils will not fix a poor formulation.

Tom NJ


Quote:
Trying to characterize the performance of a motor oil strictly by its base oil composition is an entertaining but academic game.



As some additional background reading, might also want to check threads like this:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=787833&fpart=1

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729310#Post729310

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729337#Post729337


After doing some learning, perhaps we can startback with an intelligent conversation.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
I think your question was aimed at generating discussion between F-T Basestock-vs- Refining byproduct gasses but thought that Coal Bed methane was worth keeping an eye on.


Close... not bad! My true intent will come out depending upon how many smart responses we get...

One of the things that I'd like to get a grasp of in this thread is the question which becomes if we are blindly asking for basestocks because of a perception that it is the end-all, be-all in "value" and performance determinant, or if there is a compelling need, operations-wise.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: 7777
This is my 09 Suzuki SX4 sport touring 5sp (Little pocket rocket)
Waiting for RedLine 5-30 after break in..This deserves a banana

Your all probably saying ,this guys crazy going from this to that,well , I loved my truck,but it had to go....


I like that car! Nice choice, no gripes with your decision or the desire to optimize your lubricant. The question, which I hope you understand, is that judging a lubricant by pedigree of basestock alone, is not necessarily the optimal basis... and optimized lubricant yields optimized use of the money from your pocket. Perceptions don't necessarily tell the whole technical story...

 

[Bryanccfshr]

A basestock with really great attributes may never be challenged in many applications, the oxidative resistance for example may never be utilized in a Grp III oil in most Automotive uses especially when combined with an additive package created by formulators who understand the needs of the application.
PAO's historically are an older technology and were developed by the Germans due to wartime shortages using one of the materials in your question.

Edit to add. Value is based on performance to meet the need for the price. Cost optimization/

 

[ericthepig]

Aren't grp IIIs a moving target. Ie, the technology continues to improve (grp III+ is apparently on the way) - I base all this on a journal article that JAG posted a year or two ago. Meanwhile, grp IV cannot be tweaked much beyond it's present technology (iirc). And, except for cold flow, grp IIIs are matching and/or overtaking grp IV is several categories (anti-ox, etal).

As I stated in a post years ago - grp IIIs are a beautiful thing. Take some time to study their processing and the end product. Very nice.

 

[7777]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: 7777
This is my 09 Suzuki SX4 sport touring 5sp (Little pocket rocket)
Waiting for RedLine 5-30 after break in..This deserves a banana

Your all probably saying ,this guys crazy going from this to that,well , I loved my truck,but it had to go....


I like that car! Nice choice, no gripes with your decision or the desire to optimize your lubricant. The question, which I hope you understand, is that judging a lubricant by pedigree of basestock alone, is not necessarily the optimal basis... and optimized lubricant yields optimized use of the money from your pocket. Perceptions don't necessarily tell the whole technical story...


Thanks man,I agree to a certain point to what your saying and totally respect and understand your opinion,Ive done extensive research for many years on oil analysis,other peoples experiences,my experiences,I remember some time ago reading the oil bible,it was a good read.This is like an obsessive hobby for me in a sense,like for most of you here lol(no pun intended).

Your totally right, "Perceptions don't necessarily tell the whole technical story" Thats why i wanna give redline a shot and see what the hype is all about.Honestly,i felt betrayed by M1,not because its a bad oil, because i was paying G3 thinking it was a G4,not that theres anything wrong with g3.So now ill
pay 2$ more for a G5 and see how things go.

I always believed the base stock is the foundation for a quality oil.

 

[Drivebelt]

Quote:
Use your Fram or whatever $1 filter you can afford and I'll continue using my Redline and $14 RP filter.
Fram $4.99 and conventional 5W-30 SM Group II for the win.

Well, after a long and somewhat heated discussion, I'm going to say that it is a virtual certainty the M1 EP contains significant quantities of Group III (blended with PAO and Group V) based on what we have been able to ascertain so far.

That being said, Red Line is an excellent oil and will certainly do well in your application. Some people like using very high quality products, because well, they are high quality and will over perform if anything -- and there is nothing wrong with that. A Chevrolet gets one from A to B, as does a Maybach. Some people just like to go in style if they can afford it.

I think the thing is, and as some have voiced their opinion about, is that a high end expensive oil may not provide any benefits in a lot of application scenarios over less expensive Group II or III oils these days. So, some would consider a high end oil a needless expense that will provide no tangible benefits, well, except the feel good scenario of using a top quality product, Which, is all some people really need to justify using a product. Not everyone can take the time to become versed on the ins and outs of all the various oils these days -- time is money -- so they just go for quality. Peace of mind knowing your oil will handle anything you can throw at it and then some.

 

[wiswind]

777
FACT, there are a number of great oils out there that will provide top knotch protection for your new vehicle.

FIRST thing that I would like to point out about Redline is that they recommend that you use a petroleum oil (not Redline) to break in your motor. They say that this will take place within 1500 to 2000 miles.
There is a link to the Redline website.....the FAQ page where they state this.

http://www.redlineoil.com/tech_faq.asp

As to your choice of vehicle..... A vehicle is a tool. One needs to choose the correct tool for the job.
Years ago, I never thought that I would be driving a minivan.
Buying a house and being a youth leader changed that.
My small car was not up to hauling stuff for the house and the number of passengers that I found that I wished to.
I use it to take youth on work mission trips....so it gets a little dinged and messed up but it is in very good shape for its 13 years.

Redline oil is overkill for my minivan, but that is what I use.
Like you, I want not only protection, but a large "safety margin".
I used Mobil 1 for most of the time that I have had my vehicle, and it was great.
I am also very happy with the Redline 5W-20 (my vehicle calls for 5W-20 or 5W-30).
I have over 214K miles on it....and it is LONG paid for.
I use Wix oil filters....though there are a lot of good brands out there that are just great.

To find Redline at a good price, you might try seeing if there is a supply house that carries it near you.....to save on shipping cost.
I live near Pegasus Racing Supply, so I stop by their store to pick up a case when I need it.

So, unless someone "in the know" can point out where Redline does NOT provide top notch in our vehicles, then it would seem fine to continue to use it.
Do either of us expect to push the product to its limit?...well I don't.
Extra money spent? In my case YES, but I have saved a pile by my methods of DIY maintenance and getting years of great RELIABLE service out of a vehicle.
I have Redline Power Steering fluid in the steering and Redline D4 ATF in the transmission, both appropriate for the specifications from FORD for my vehicle.

As you have been visiting this site for some time, as I have, you already know that there are some posters here who really know their stuff about motor oil......which is what keeps me coming back.
Look beyond the fluff (that any open forum can have) and learn from the folks that make this a great site to come and learn.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Not knocking redline per se, but here is a good post from Tom NJ from a while back, just for everyone to reset upon:
Quote:


POEs help reduce deposits in two ways. First, their higher oxidative stability helps resist deposit formation, and second, their polarity helps dissolve and disperse existing deposits.

The former is meaningful at very high temperatures, such as in jet engines, but may not be apparent in the relatively mild conditions of a car engine. Plus the anti-oxidant additives play an important role.

The latter can help clean a car engine, all else being equal, but is only one factor as the detergent and dispersant additives also play an important role.

POEs add a cleaning factor to a motor oil, but once again it is the total formulation that really matters.

Great base oils will not fix a poor formulation.

Tom NJ


Quote:
Trying to characterize the performance of a motor oil strictly by its base oil composition is an entertaining but academic game.



As some additional background reading, might also want to check threads like this:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=787833&fpart=1

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729310#Post729310

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729337#Post729337


After doing some learning, perhaps we can startback with an intelligent conversation.





The part in red is what I don't get at all. Why is it assumed that Redline is a poor formulation? This is the most common argument I see the old "the best base oil won't fix a poor formulation". While I agree with this, Redline does not apply. On the flipside, why wouldn't you want to start with the best base oil in your quest to formulate the best oil?

While I may not agree with everything you say, thanks for bringing this back on track.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
Quote:
Use your Fram or whatever $1 filter you can afford and I'll continue using my Redline and $14 RP filter.
Fram $4.99 and conventional 5W-30 SM Group II for the win.

Well, after a long and somewhat heated discussion, I'm going to say that it is a virtual certainty the M1 EP contains significant quantities of Group III (blended with PAO and Group V) based on what we have been able to ascertain so far.

That being said, Red Line is an excellent oil and will certainly do well in your application. Some people like using very high quality products, because well, they are high quality and will over perform if anything -- and there is nothing wrong with that. A Chevrolet gets one from A to B, as does a Maybach. Some people just like to go in style if they can afford it.

I think the thing is, and as some have voiced their opinion about, is that a high end expensive oil may not provide any benefits in a lot of application scenarios over less expensive Group II or III oils these days. So, some would consider a high end oil a needless expense that will provide no tangible benefits, well, except the feel good scenario of using a top quality product, Which, is all some people really need to justify using a product. Not everyone can take the time to become versed on the ins and outs of all the various oils these days -- time is money -- so they just go for quality. Peace of mind knowing your oil will handle anything you can throw at it and then some.

I agree with you. It's not a necessity but it does give you a huge margin of safety and I truly believe reduced wear even in normal conditions.

One of the big points that many miss is that in some regions the body does not rot out before the engine wears out. Cars do not rust where I live period. There is no salt on the roads, we get 2" or rain a year. There is no reason the car won't last 20+ years. So unless my car gets totaled, chances are it will go through at least one engine rebuild. I'm anal about maintenence so there's no chance of the car suddenly one day needing a complete suspension rebuild or anything of that nature. If an oil will push off a rebuild by a few years, it's worth it to me.

 

[tig1]

Buick,

Your right. My sons 91 Ranger is about 19 years old now and is still running strong. 333,000 mile on M1 oil has kept it running great, hopefully for several years to come. I first owned the truck and used M1 10-30 till I gave it to him at 190,000 mils. He still uses M1 with 10-13,0000 mile OCis. So using a great oil like Red line or M1 is good engine insurance for the long haul.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Buick,

Your right. My sons 91 Ranger is about 19 years old now and is still running strong. 333,000 mile on M1 oil has kept it running great, hopefully for several years to come. I first owned the truck and used M1 10-30 till I gave it to him at 190,000 mils. He still uses M1 with 10-13,0000 mile OCis. So using a great oil like Red line or M1 is good engine insurance for the long haul.


Thank you.

 

[talker]

M1 is good oil.


However, I don't always use it.....

 

[hr1940]

Each person has a favorite oil and filter and that is why there are so many brands on the market. This website is a place to discuss things in a friendly manner and learn from others. This tread is filled with insults and snide remarks and so I am locking it.