I need facts only if possible...

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
The FACT is that most engines in most cars will outlast the usefull life of the rest of the car if manufacturers guidelines for maintenance and oil is followed. That means that Suzuki will be spitting out CV joints and needing schocks twice before that engine shows signs of degrading running supertech or any house API convientional oil.


But why not have an engine that runs like new, passes emissions with ease, and gets like new mpg up until it goes to the junkyard. Just because it still runs doesn't mean it runs well.
I stated it will run without degrading that means no loss in performance on the cheapest oil that meets spec
And I think it's greatly exaggerated the engine will ALWAYS outlast the body. Engines last a very long time on whatever you put in them but there are plenty cases where the engine goes before the body.
Please quantify your cases as a percentile of the driving public
Where I live, I guarantee the engine will go first assuming it doesn't get wrecked.

Again, Please quantify your statement with actual statistical evidence rather. Your garantee means little otherwise.


Please qualify your statement that it will "run without degrading". If I believed you, it would seem that engines don't wear out. However they do.
Engines wear out yes, but the rest of the car(auto transmissions, suspension, electircal)wear out much faster) This is a fact and arguing against the natural degrading of a automobile is your asinine task.

There is paper after paper written about the benefits of esters. There is paper after paper written about HTHS vs wear. I'm not about to waste my time because everyone here has already seen it and they pick and choose what they believe on how it fits their "beliefs".
Esters have benefits, sure. But they don't make a significant difference to the everyday auto.
Honestly, this site is not what it used to be. Everyone has an agenda and it's all about winning an argument at all costs. Now we're arguing that a grp II oil is just as good as a grp V. I feel sorry for you.
Don't feel sorry for me. This is about keeping the discusion factual. You seem to dislike facts that disprove YOUR beliefs, you do project the weakness in your arguments onto others. Therefore you either steal time from your employer or slack on yourself to assure you get the last word. .. Most of us have real jobs, and post in our limited spare time. I kinda feel sorry for you.

To the point, I can afford Redline so I use it. I want the least amount of wear in a $40,000 car so I spend an extra $20 on an oil change. Sounds like an ok investment.


It is no consequence to me what you can afford. I am sure that makes you feel good about yourself. I and many others have no need to mention what I can afford but abstain from purchasing as I have a self worth not based on how I look or what I buy or own.

This is not meant to be degrading or an insult, it is just a personality observation


I'm sorry, but I don't think there is any other way of interpreting that post other than a slanderous tirade.

Is that what this has come down to?

Because this man enjoys cars as a HOBBY, and subsequently has way more TIME invested in his ONE car than most will likely have in every car they've ever owned, and he wants to PROTECT that investment in the best way he can, he gets railroaded and attacked on a personal level for his OIL choice?

He is having his work ethic questioned, his self-esteem, life goals and everything being dragged out in some bizarre on-line psychological evaluation..... Because he voiced his opinion about oil, wear and filtration on a board who's main focus is...... oil, wear and filtration.

Go figure.

This was completely uncalled for.

 

[sl1driver]

Wow, I just read this entire thread, and do I feel disappointed! The OP asked a pretty straight forward question, although it seems a bit irrelevent since it appears that he already had his mind made up to buy the Redline. The answer to the question is "I don't know" since M1's formula is not known.

Some people moved the conversation in the direction of pointing out that the exact amount of base stock and the exact formula doesn't matter, that there are some very good oils out there (a point with which I whole-heartedly agree, by the way). I believe these people were truly trying to be helpful. The OP did cop a bit of an attitude, and then others responded in kind.

It's sad. This whole thing could have been avoided. When all is said and done, IT'S JUST OIL!!! Use what you want to use and get on with your life!

 

[labman]

Heresy, blasphemy!

 

[7777]

Originally Posted By: sl1driver
Wow, I just read this entire thread, and do I feel disappointed! The OP asked a pretty straight forward question, although it seems a bit irrelevent since it appears that he already had his mind made up to buy the Redline. The answer to the question is "I don't know" since M1's formula is not known.

Some people moved the conversation in the direction of pointing out that the exact amount of base stock and the exact formula doesn't matter, that there are some very good oils out there (a point with which I whole-heartedly agree, by the way). I believe these people were truly trying to be helpful. The OP did cop a bit of an attitude, and then others responded in kind.

It's sad. This whole thing could have been avoided. When all is said and done, IT'S JUST OIL!!! Use what you want to use and get on with your life!


I copped an attitude, are you kidding?Ive been attacked on a personal level,(so has buick)is that what you call "people trying to be helpful" I never asked for the formula,I basically wanted to know what group base is used, period! I'm not gonna pay for fake syn, refined patrol(hydrocracked)and no,i did not make up my mind before i started this thread,I looked everywhere for my answer before i came here, That is why i named the thread
"I need facts only if possible"so i can avoid this cr ap,but unfortunately, it didn't work out that way.

There are some good people in here, and i thank you,but
unfortunately,you have some insecure,emotionally unstable,boneheads
that ruin it for others.

 

[ottotheclown]

Thank you for your reply OVERKILL that is class reply. 7777 i hope your medical problem works out and you return to a normal life.As a fellow New Yorker i am sure you can handle any heat here on BITOG.Somewhere in all of this i think is a answer to your question.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: 7777
Originally Posted By: sl1driver
Wow, I just read this entire thread, and do I feel disappointed! The OP asked a pretty straight forward question, although it seems a bit irrelevent since it appears that he already had his mind made up to buy the Redline. The answer to the question is "I don't know" since M1's formula is not known.

Some people moved the conversation in the direction of pointing out that the exact amount of base stock and the exact formula doesn't matter, that there are some very good oils out there (a point with which I whole-heartedly agree, by the way). I believe these people were truly trying to be helpful. The OP did cop a bit of an attitude, and then others responded in kind.

It's sad. This whole thing could have been avoided. When all is said and done, IT'S JUST OIL!!! Use what you want to use and get on with your life!


I copped an attitude, are you kidding?Ive been attacked on a personal level,(so has buick)is that what you call "people trying to be helpful" I never asked for the formula,I basically wanted to know what group base is used, period! I'm not gonna pay for fake syn, refined patrol(hydrocracked)and no,i did not make up my mind before i started this thread,I looked everywhere for my answer before i came here, That is why i named the thread
"I need facts only if possible"so i can avoid this cr ap,but unfortunately, it didn't work out that way.

There are some good people in here, and i thank you,but
unfortunately,you have some insecure,emotionally unstable,boneheads
that ruin it for others.


Opinions on this board can quickly evolve into very heated and sometimes vicious attacks when one party has a differing opinion. Certain 'favorite' brand loyal folks (PP, Mobil, etc.) can also have a habit of being blind nor unwilling to accept anothers opinion. As in most of our society today being kind and behaving like a gentleman has been replaced by loud, aggressive, and obnoxious actions that seem to be celebrated above a more civilized, respectful tone. It's a shame but I think it's a cultural thing now to ignore civility. Just look at our movies and TV.
Anyway, there are some really nice folks here that are always willing to listen and help answer questions too. Not all are rude. I just try and ignore the jerk ones or send them a PM so as to try and avoid mucking up the board.
As for the oil thing? I still say just go for Red Line. From what I've read the oil is superb and tough as nails. Should work very well for your application.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: 7777
Originally Posted By: sl1driver
Wow, I just read this entire thread, and do I feel disappointed! The OP asked a pretty straight forward question, although it seems a bit irrelevent since it appears that he already had his mind made up to buy the Redline. The answer to the question is "I don't know" since M1's formula is not known.

Some people moved the conversation in the direction of pointing out that the exact amount of base stock and the exact formula doesn't matter, that there are some very good oils out there (a point with which I whole-heartedly agree, by the way). I believe these people were truly trying to be helpful. The OP did cop a bit of an attitude, and then others responded in kind.

It's sad. This whole thing could have been avoided. When all is said and done, IT'S JUST OIL!!! Use what you want to use and get on with your life!


I copped an attitude, are you kidding?Ive been attacked on a personal level,(so has buick)is that what you call "people trying to be helpful" I never asked for the formula,I basically wanted to know what group base is used, period! I'm not gonna pay for fake syn, refined patrol(hydrocracked)and no,i did not make up my mind before i started this thread,I looked everywhere for my answer before i came here, That is why i named the thread
"I need facts only if possible"so i can avoid this cr ap,but unfortunately, it didn't work out that way.

There are some good people in here, and i thank you,but
unfortunately,you have some insecure,emotionally unstable,boneheads
that ruin it for others.


Opinions on this board can quickly evolve into very heated and sometimes vicious attacks when one party has a differing opinion. Certain 'favorite' brand loyal folks (PP, Mobil, etc.) can also have a habit of being blind nor unwilling to accept anothers opinion. As in most of our society today being kind and behaving like a gentleman has been replaced by loud, aggressive, and obnoxious actions that seem to be celebrated above a more civilized, respectful tone. It's a shame but I think it's a cultural thing now to ignore civility. Just look at our movies and TV.
Anyway, there are some really nice folks here that are always willing to listen and help answer questions too. Not all are rude. I just try and ignore the jerk ones or send them a PM so as to try and avoid mucking up the board.
As for the oil thing? I still say just go for Red Line. From what I've read the oil is superb and tough as nails. Should work very well for your application.


I agree with you but there's one more thing. I talk to people on here the way I would talk to their face which is why it takes a lot for me to say something out of line. So often on these boards it's a person's chance to be the tough guy that they can't be in real life. On the other board I visit, I have young guys all the time spouting off for no reason some even threatening me. It was almost comical when we had our first big meet and I saw all these people. I think they realized that I may actually be a powerlifter like I said and most of them were 100lbs dripping wet. I could care less about revenge or anything of that nature but it was interesting to see that the mouthiest ones were the smallest ones and the larger guys were always the polite ones.

 

[FrankN4]

Originally Posted By: 7777
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
My question is why does it matter?

Your question is somewhat obsolete and therefore irrelevant. People can argue synthetic group III vs. IV/V until they are blue in the face - doesn't help anything...

The best oil is the one that produces the best UOA results for YOUR driving profile in YOUR engine.

Please do a search on this, as it has been discussed in one way or another, nearly every single day for the last year or two.


Obviously it matters to me.
For me, its very relevant!

I'm not arguing between groups ,I'm just asking if moble1 ep is a group 3, thats it, simple. Now , if you don't know , just say so.

If anyone else knows for sure, id really appreciate a response ,thanks.



If you really want to know, it isn't really that difficult. If you have a child, relative, very close friend that attends or teaches at a college, university, or tech facility that has gas chromatography(SP), they CAN get it done. If you live close to such a facility, you CAN get it done. However, you can never repeat the results or how you obtained them. I know that such tests have been made for a keg of Busch.

If you really want to know and are willing to find out, you can.

 

[sl1driver]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: 7777
Originally Posted By: sl1driver
Wow, I just read this entire thread, and do I feel disappointed! The OP asked a pretty straight forward question, although it seems a bit irrelevent since it appears that he already had his mind made up to buy the Redline. The answer to the question is "I don't know" since M1's formula is not known.

Some people moved the conversation in the direction of pointing out that the exact amount of base stock and the exact formula doesn't matter, that there are some very good oils out there (a point with which I whole-heartedly agree, by the way). I believe these people were truly trying to be helpful. The OP did cop a bit of an attitude, and then others responded in kind.

It's sad. This whole thing could have been avoided. When all is said and done, IT'S JUST OIL!!! Use what you want to use and get on with your life!


I copped an attitude, are you kidding?Ive been attacked on a personal level,(so has buick)is that what you call "people trying to be helpful" I never asked for the formula,I basically wanted to know what group base is used, period! I'm not gonna pay for fake syn, refined patrol(hydrocracked)and no,i did not make up my mind before i started this thread,I looked everywhere for my answer before i came here, That is why i named the thread
"I need facts only if possible"so i can avoid this cr ap,but unfortunately, it didn't work out that way.

There are some good people in here, and i thank you,but
unfortunately,you have some insecure,emotionally unstable,boneheads
that ruin it for others.


Opinions on this board can quickly evolve into very heated and sometimes vicious attacks when one party has a differing opinion. Certain 'favorite' brand loyal folks (PP, Mobil, etc.) can also have a habit of being blind nor unwilling to accept anothers opinion. As in most of our society today being kind and behaving like a gentleman has been replaced by loud, aggressive, and obnoxious actions that seem to be celebrated above a more civilized, respectful tone. It's a shame but I think it's a cultural thing now to ignore civility. Just look at our movies and TV.
Anyway, there are some really nice folks here that are always willing to listen and help answer questions too. Not all are rude. I just try and ignore the jerk ones or send them a PM so as to try and avoid mucking up the board.
As for the oil thing? I still say just go for Red Line. From what I've read the oil is superb and tough as nails. Should work very well for your application.


I agree with you but there's one more thing. I talk to people on here the way I would talk to their face which is why it takes a lot for me to say something out of line. So often on these boards it's a person's chance to be the tough guy that they can't be in real life. On the other board I visit, I have young guys all the time spouting off for no reason some even threatening me. It was almost comical when we had our first big meet and I saw all these people. I think they realized that I may actually be a powerlifter like I said and most of them were 100lbs dripping wet. I could care less about revenge or anything of that nature but it was interesting to see that the mouthiest ones were the smallest ones and the larger guys were always the polite ones.


It's funny but you're absolutely right. I guess the anonymity of the internet gives some people a false sense of invulnerability.

As someone said a few posts ago "I don't have a dog in this fight." I know everybody here has their favorite oil (sometimes for no real logical reason). That's why I said everybody should just use whichever oil he/she chooses and just get on with life. It's interesting to talk about oil (man, are we sick or what?!), but when it comes right down to it, it doesn't matter if someone uses PP or Synpower, or Amsoil, or RP, or RL, or their favorite Dino.

To 7777: I don't have any beef with you, that's just how I saw it. Your original question could not be answered, simply because the answer is not known. You seemed to have gotten hung up on my use of the word "formula". Sorry if that confused the issue. The above is all I was trying to convey. I'm not defending other peoples' reactions. Some were way out of line.

I think we all need to take a step back every once in a while and remember that although not all oils are made the same, it's all oil, and pretty much any oil that meets a particular spec will be fine in a given application. That's all I meant when I said "It's just oil." 7777 should use whichever oil makes him happy, for whatever reason, and then go out and enjoy life!

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: 7777
from what i learned in life,when companies hide their ingredients,obviously they have something to hide and that totally turns me off.




I try to cut them a *little* slack for proprietary reasons. If a company does discover that a particular ratio of groups has an inherent advantage in making the oil perform better, why should they be forced to reveal it?

And the whole underlying premise that a "pure" Group IV oil is somehow better is, IMO, false. Yes I expect a large percentage of Group IV in a premium synthetic oil, but Group III oils do have some characteristics that can make the final blend of oil better. For one, they tend to be better solvents for additives than straight Group IV. And some oils that are predominantly Group III (I'm thinking RTS and its XHVI Group III+ base stock) are as good as any majority Group IV oil.

 

[Sayjac]

You know it's ironic, one of the poster's taking offense to a "personal attack" told another poster on another thread, "you must not get laid much". Would that not be considered a personal attack? Guess it depends on who's doing the personal attacks, and who takes offense.

As for the OP, sounds like he's made up his mind. So, he picked the answer and made his choice.

 

[Ben99GT]

Go BuickGN go!

Redline is a [censored] fine oil, those that arguing that it isn't, or arguing against the fact that a POE base offers real benefits are really kidding themselves.

I do not run Redline motor oils at the moment, I run PP. Why? Because of cost. I have a very hard time spending $9/qt on oil when both of my vehicles call for ~7 quarts per oil change, no matter how highly I regard the product...and I hold Redline motor oils in the highest regard.

I do not delude myself into believing PP is in any way superior just because I use it and it is inexpensive, however.

 

[7777]

Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
Thank you for your reply OVERKILL that is class reply. 7777 i hope your medical problem works out and you return to a normal life.As a fellow New Yorker i am sure you can handle any heat here on BITOG.Somewhere in all of this i think is a answer to your question.


Thanks ottotheclown for your concern,Yeah we new yorkers deal with stress every day. I don't let it get to me at all, its not worth it,i laugh at it most of the time .As far as answers go,
looks like M1 does use group3 (stocks are higher too because of it)Thats cool their changing with the times i guess.
I still use M1 EP in wifes car and believe it or not i just changed my oil in the Suzuki sx4 with M1 5000 (dyno)at 500 miles,
Just to make sure i seat the rings properly and redline will follow at 1200 to 1500 miles

.

 

[saberz]

This thread has really derailed and turned into a public example of "what can go wrong, will go wrong".

Honestly our passion for oil has united and brought us all together under the BITOG banner. I commend everyones passion for oil, facts, and looking for the truth, but lets not do it at the expense of each other.

I read this whole thread and was basically shocked at half the stuff being said here, was like visiting an old consolewars forum from the late 90's.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
You know it's ironic, one of the poster's taking offense to a "personal attack" told another poster on another thread, "you must not get laid much". Would that not be considered a personal attack? Guess it depends on who's doing the personal attacks, and who takes offense.

As for the OP, sounds like he's made up his mind. So, he picked the answer and made his choice.


Get a life, I said that only after I had been attacked. It's funny that I've had numerous personal attacks against me when the only thing I've done is suggest an oil and filter but it's ok when it's against me.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: sayjac
You know it's ironic, one of the poster's taking offense to a "personal attack" told another poster on another thread, "you must not get laid much". Would that not be considered a personal attack? Guess it depends on who's doing the personal attacks, and who takes offense.

As for the OP, sounds like he's made up his mind. So, he picked the answer and made his choice.


Get a life, I said that only after I had been attacked. It's funny that I've had numerous personal attacks against me when the only thing I've done is suggest an oil and filter but it's ok when it's against me.
Get a life, that's rich. Perhaps the your "numerous personal attacks" should tell you something. Especially all when you've done is "suggest an oil and filter."

Grow up.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: sayjac
You know it's ironic, one of the poster's taking offense to a "personal attack" told another poster on another thread, "you must not get laid much". Would that not be considered a personal attack? Guess it depends on who's doing the personal attacks, and who takes offense.

As for the OP, sounds like he's made up his mind. So, he picked the answer and made his choice.


Get a life, I said that only after I had been attacked. It's funny that I've had numerous personal attacks against me when the only thing I've done is suggest an oil and filter but it's ok when it's against me.
Get a life, that's rich. Perhaps the your "numerous personal attacks" should tell you something. Especially all when you've done is "suggest an oil and filter."

Grow up.


Personal attacks should tell me something? Well, let's hear it. I'm not going to apologize for running the best synthetic oil and filter out there when others can't afford it or want to run something inferior. I suggest something and next I know I'm getting lessons on self esteem, money management, and whatever else you guys said. Apparently I hit a nerve somewhere. So again, get a life and come back when you can act like an adult. The last thing I'm worried about is an internet nerd trying to tell me how to live my life.

 

[JHZR2]

So since everyone's mind is made up, this thread is getting nowhere. So, let's hold a poll:

-Do you actually know, based upon testing and factual evidence, what the positives and negatives are with group III oils?

-Can you quantify a superior oxidative resistance of group III or group IV?

-Are you aware of the interactions of water with ester-based oils?

-What basis is there that ZDDP is superior as an ADD to other more modern additives that serve the same purpose?

-Have you come to a determination of the optimal moly content for your oil?

-Have you fully characterized the oil temperature profile for your engine to determine what kinds of specific additives and set-up that you need?



Let's ask another question - if I synthesized oil from coal - an F-T GTL oil basestock, would that be better or worse than one synthesized from natural gas? It is very important that you answer this one so I get a feel for how well you actually understand chemistry and the chemical industry.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2




Let's ask another question - if I synthesized oil from coal - an F-T GTL oil basestock, would that be better or worse than one synthesized from natural gas? It is very important that you answer this one so I get a feel for how well you actually understand chemistry and the chemical industry.



I'll let others answer the first ones as I am interested in who answers and what their answers are. The last one is interesting.

It depends on where the natural gas comes from. Coal has some interesting potential. Conventional gas wells produce condensates,aromatics, Co2 and sulphur compounds consistant with most petroleum production. Coal bed Methane is a much better product. Once the Water is removed the methane is practically pure. From a refining point of view you are already a step closer to a better product out of the coal bed with less energy expended.
I think your question was aimed at generating discussion between F-T Basestock-vs- Refining byproduct gasses but thought that Coal Bed methane was worth keeping an eye on.

 

[7777]

Just posting a couple of pics...

This is my ford 06 F250 before i sold it(used M1 5-30 EP since new...

This is my 09 Suzuki SX4 sport touring 5sp (Little pocket rocket)
Waiting for RedLine 5-30 after break in..This deserves a banana

Your all probably saying ,this guys crazy going from this to that,well , I loved my truck,but it had to go....