I Am Tired of Hearing Thicker is Better

[AEHaas]

When we talk about the oils we use we should be sure the mention the oil Type:

Type I - Dino
Type II - Semi-Synthetic
Type III - Synthetic
Type IV - Vegetable or Salad

 

[goodvibes]

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I suspect that Ferrari specifies 10W-60 in case an owner somehow manages to drive the car as hard as it can be driven, which is very hard indeed. I don't endorse using it that way on public roads, so don't misunderstand me. I suspect that the running viscosity of the GC is around town driving could easily be as high as the actual running viscosity of the specified 10W-60 oil when the vehicle is driven at 80% or more of it's capabilities. The viscosity vs. temperature curves for even the best quality motor oils are pretty steep.

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We have a winner. Time for somebody to acknowledge a reasonable answer. Regardless of how most these cars actually get used, I doubt Ferrari views them as grocery getters. Mr Haas is obviously using the right stuff for his situation as would I in his position. The vehicle will easily last through the warranty period with either oil on the street but Ferrari is probably better served with the heavier oil for extreme circumstances as these cars do get tracked on hot days. A thinner oil over an extended track day could be a problem.

 

[Merkava_4]

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Note that in any engine going to a thicker oil will in one way make it more quiet. The thicker oil on the inside surfaces will act as a better sound buffer. Going to a thinner oil can only make it more quiet by some other method. The Murcielago was delivered with OEM 5W40 Agip, the engine was very noisy. I changed to 0W30 Mobil 1 and it became more quiet. Then I changed to the 5W20 Red Line and the engine is almost silent, it is definitely soother as well.

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Having a thin oil that's also very quiet would definitely be a win-win situation; it would be interesting to find out how Red Line is able to do that with their 5W-20. I wonder if perhaps it's because it's ester based.

 

[SargeGTO]

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I am going to put the 0W20 salad dressing in the Lamborghini that is currently using the 5W20 Red Line. Note that in any engine going to a thicker oil will in one way make it more quiet. The thicker oil on the inside surfaces will act as a better sound buffer. Going to a thinner oil can only make it more quiet by some other method. The Murcielago was delivered with OEM 5W40 Agip, the engine was very noisy. I changed to 0W30 Mobil 1 and it became more quiet. Then I changed to the 5W20 Red Line and the engine is almost silent, it is definitely soother as well. This is the car I was considering use of the Motorcraft.

Both Enzos are exactly the same but for the mileage. Both cars had short trips on the race track before our ownerships. We drive at the same locations. His car had one long highway run from Orlando back to Sarasota. It is a 3 hour trip - but I think it only took him about an hour. The only difference in driving habits is that he hits the gas a little sooner than I do. I mean he does not wait until the oil is fully warmed up. But he hates to drive the car at sustained top RPM whereas I like to do this after oil temperature stabilization. I am not sure what his oil temperatures are running but mine usually run around 180 F all year long.

aehaas

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Thank you sir....I am really looking at the fuel dilution and the oil temps to see any correlation between the two in the final performance of the viscosity choice.I see your ( fuel dilution is almost double his) and suspect/cogitate .... Your running a thinner weight oil results in lower oil temps thus not "burning" off the fuel.You do answer one of my question though.. If this elevated fuel dilution has a negative impact on wear metals. I also run a high performance engine and am contemplating running a thinner oil such as a RedLine 5-20....or the RLI salad oil....the RLI appears to work well in a fuel dilution mix of >1.0...I also run the same oil temps as you consistently.I run 11:1 compression nowadays...what is your compression ratio if I may ask?

 

[AEHaas]

The Enzo compression ratio is 11.2:1

 

[G-MAN]

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When we talk about the oils we use we should be sure the mention the oil Type:

Type I - Dino
Type II - Semi-Synthetic
Type III - Synthetic
Type IV - Vegetable or Salad

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Can you explain this new nomenclature for the base oil groups? And what happened to Group V?

 

[AEHaas]

Red Line now falls into the Type IV for example. Animal and vegetable oils are esters. Some esters are synthesized while others are naturally occurring.

Here is a reference:

Application of a Biodegradable Lubricant in Two Flexible Fuel Vehicles, Jesper Schramm:
Vegetable biodegradable oils were used showing good wear characteristics despite excessive thinning over time.

Type V - is all other kinds of oils in my classification.

 

[glenncof]

I see QS Q-HP 5W40 is Ferrari approved (per QS spec)and is very close to GC 0W30 visc.

That seems like a much better choice than 10W60 unless your application out runs the cooling capacity of the vehicle.

It would be a better comparison.

 

[kd5byb]

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I Am Tired of Hearing Thicker is Better.

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Me too. UOA after UOA shows that "thin" oils like 0W20 protect very well. Yet, the myth continues!

BTW - working my way through your oil 101 series of articles. Very well written. Some day I'm going to get a masters in tribology to go with my BSME.

thanks much,
ben

 

[Gary Allan]

I say that I'm tired of both thin and thick is better camps.

Next I go to Bruceblend 20w-50 in winter. I'll bump both walls just to show that you can be anal about visc on either end of the spectrum and feel confident.

5w-30 types? Hmmph- wimps. Make a statement one way or the other...or like me ..go both ways...or GO HOME.

One grade above or below spec is all it takes....those who use "straight" weights where multiviscs are spec'd qualify.

 

[Merkava_4]

My thicker-is-better mentality stems from the time I put EXXON SUPERFLO 20W-50 in an old 1978 Cadillac 7.0L V8. Man alive did that ever make it run quiet! All you could hear were the belts rolling over the pulleys. It had been running 10W-30 Valvoline All-Climate before that.

 

[buster]

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I suspect that Ferrari specifies 10W-60 in case an owner somehow manages to drive the car as hard as it can be driven, which is very hard indeed. I don't endorse using it that way on public roads, so don't misunderstand me. I suspect that the running viscosity of the GC is around town driving could easily be as high as the actual running viscosity of the specified 10W-60 oil when the vehicle is driven at 80% or more of it's capabilities. The viscosity vs. temperature curves for even the best quality motor oils are pretty steep.

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We have a winner. Time for somebody to acknowledge a reasonable answer. Regardless of how most these cars actually get used, I doubt Ferrari views them as grocery getters. Mr Haas is obviously using the right stuff for his situation as would I in his position. The vehicle will easily last through the warranty period with either oil on the street but Ferrari is probably better served with the heavier oil for extreme circumstances as these cars do get tracked on hot days. A thinner oil over an extended track day could be a problem.

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This makes the most sense to me. Running a 20wt on the track could make it a 5wt after major fuel dilution. The higher viscosity is there for a cushion I suppose.

 

[IcebergS2000]

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I don't disagree with your postulation.

I just don't think these two UOA's are overwhelming proof. Such different oils, such different driving styles.

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I have to agree with Pablo here. There is no proof here that the thicker oil is the culprit.

 

[bruce381]

""Next I go to Bruceblend 20w-50"'

Gary is that the ASHLESS AW pak, NON VII, shear stable smells like bubblegum one?
LOL
bruce

 

[Ramblin Fever]

How bout comparing regular dino oils within a certain viscosity range, rather then just synthetics.

Also, try comparing those viscosity's on an engine ran in the dust/desert with winds nearing 50mph, hauling heavy loads, a/c on full blast; and running ALL day long, with heavy idling time.

 

[Zaedock]

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I Am Tired of Hearing Thicker is Better.

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My Jeep(s) run great on Delo400 SAE30 in summer(12.1cSt@100C=perfect for me). 10W40 works, but shears back to a high 30wt anyway. The straight 30 holds up better to abuse. I commend Gary for running 20wts in his Heeps though, and I probably would too if I didn't beat on my trail rig so bad. I'm nursing my '89 XJ back to health after a head gasket change (the coolant overflow bottle cap blew off on the highway; cheap plastic)but have considered trying SuperTech 5W20 for the winter. That would be a cool UOA. My '59 CJ5 has Delo400 SAE30, but is currently in the resto stage.
I used to be a "thick oil" guy, but have opened my mind that thin can work just as well if applied correctly. The work that Gary has done is proof.

"The Jeep is the only true American sports car"
Enzo Ferrari

 

[TallPaul]

I don't think thicker is better, but I also believe that 10w30 is about as thin as one ever needs to go unless cold weather dictates something more flowable for startup, in which case I prefer a synthetic 10w30 to a 5w30. As for me, I prefer either a thicker 10w30, such as high mileage version, or add a quart of 10w40 to thicken the standard 10w30. I just don't see any good reason to go with a 20 weight unless one is doing very short trips in a very cold environment.

 

[SpitfireS]

I can't wait to do a UOA (and post it here) on the currently in use Shell Helix Ultra X 0W-30, 9.6 cSt oil in my Honda (AP1 - 9000 rpm redline - 140400km old) S2000.
Now @ 14400 km or so on the oil.
Still +/- 3100 km to go (if I can deal with that)

That's still less then the recommended 30.000 km OCI recommended by Shell for this OEM VW (pumpduse) diesel engine oil.

Maybe that Helix Ultra X is something for the Enzo's?
As far as I can tell its a PAO / Ester oil.

Regards.

 

[buster]

I really think these exotics come with thicker grades to account for fuel dilution. Arguing about viscosity is really a waste of time. All depends on different variables.

 

[yannis]

At least one oil company believed that thicker is better:
Watch the final two mineral choises:
SAE 15W-40 --> Excellent protection against wear.
SAE 15W-50 --> Perfect protection against wear.
http://www.flitalia.it/en/fl/manuale/en/omot_0104_au.htm

4. ENGINE OILS FOR CARS
a. SAE GRADES IN SYNTHETIC AND SEMISYNTHETIC PRODUCTS



SAE 10W-60
Recommended for outside temperatures between -25°C and +50°C

This viscosimetric grade ensures high protection at high temperatures, warranting a suitable lubricating film also under harsh operating conditions. The broad viscosity spectrum allows in any case satisfactory cold running conditions.
Ideal for sports purposes and also in competitive events.
Low Fuel-Economy performance.


SAE 10W-40
Recommended for outside temperatures between -25°C and +40°C

This is the viscosimetric grade mostly used in countries with a temperate climate, it ensures excellent performance of the lubricating film under all operating conditions. It allows good operating conditions of hydraulic tappets and reduces oil consumption.
Ideal for long motorway journeys.


SAE 5W-40
Recommended for outside temperatures between -30°C and +40°C

This particular viscosimetric grade ensures excellent performance of the lubricating film under all operating conditions. It allows excellent operating conditions of hydraulic tappets and warrants perfect cold starting.
Ideal for long motorway journeys.
Good Fuel-Economy performance.


SAE 5W-30
Recommended for outside temperatures between -30°C and +35°C

Typical viscosimetric grade for "Fuel-Economy" products, it ensures excellent performance of the lubricating film under operating conditions with harsh temperatures. It allows perfect operating conditions of hydraulic tappets.
Excellent Fuel-Economy performance.


SAE 5W-20
Recommended for outside temperatures between -30°C and +30°C

Specific viscosity grading for competition products, suitable for lubricants used on engines that need the utmost reduction of friction.
It allows the engine to substantially reduce the loss of power owing to internal friction, improving the mechanical output of the engine itself.


SAE 0W-30
Recommended for outside temperatures between -35°C and +35°C

Viscosimetric grade for extremely harsh temperatures, it ensures excellent performance of the lubricating film in the various operating conditions. It allows perfect operating conditions of hydraulic tappets.
Good Fuel-Economy performance.
Excellent cold starting characteristics.


b. SAE GRADES IN MINERAL PRODUCTS

SAE 15W-40
Recommended for outside temperatures between -15°C and +40°C

The typical viscosimetric grade for Mediterranean temperatures. It ensures excellent performance of the lubricating film in the various operating conditions. It allows fair operating conditions of hydraulic tappets. Excellent protection against wear.
Ideal for long journeys.
Fair cold starting characteristics.
Low Fuel-Economy performance.


SAE 15W-50
Recommended for outside temperatures between -15°C and +45°C

Viscosimetric grade particularly suitable for ensuring excellent performance of the lubricating film under very harsh hot conditions. It allows fair operating conditions of hydraulic tappets. Perfect protection against wear.
Ideal for long journeys.
Fair cold starting characteristics.
Low Fuel-Economy performance.