Dropping from a 60 Grade to a 20 Grade Oil Revisited

[AEHaas]

It may be worth revisiting this very old UOA comparison. I have not seen a similar item recently. I am giving evidence that thinner oils can be used when otherwise very heavy grades may be specified. And that thinner oils may result in much less wear than when the “recommended” oil, in the “manual” is used. Note: We live in tropical Florida.

Several things to note. We are neighbors, drove the same car (but for the milage), drove the same way in the same environment. His car had what can be considered normal wear. Yet mine had a significantly reduced wear pattern. Also, the original RLI that dropped to a 20 grade oil had more wear than the newer “Enzo” formulation. But it was still less than the 60 grade Shell oil. Maybe the sweat spot for this car was a 30 grade oil for driving in our environment.

Compared Enzo Ferrari UOA from years ago: This is my neighbor’s 2003 Ferrari Enzo with a total of 8,800 miles on the left column and my 2003 Enzo with a total of 4,400 miles on the right column (middle 2 columns, earlier UOA of my car). Both cars had about 1,400 miles on the oil. His obviously had more break-in time. He had the oil changed by the Ferrari dealer using the required 10W-60 Shell Helix Ultra Racing oil. I ran 0W30 Castrol GC in the second column, the original formula of RLI in the 3rd column and the “new and improved “ RLI “Dr. Haas Enzo Formula" in the last column.

Tested my Enzo oils by Terry Dyson. His testing counts larger particles as well as all the smaller ones so other labs may give false lower values. At no time has the oil temperature in this engine gotten above 180 F. This latest oil has been in for nearly two years but Terry Dyson said I should just keep going (and going and going). What is particularly interesting is that the original RLI formulation dropped to a 20 grade, the newer formulation did not.

Part of the original post: I believe this formulation has been perfected and am considering it’s use in all my cars. I am not sure my wife will allow such a thick oil in her Murcielago however.

OILS: ….Shell……. GC…... RLI….... RLI - “Dr. Haas Enzo Formula”
Iron___________ 32...11...7...3 (Fe in RLI VOA =2)
Chromium ____ Nickel _________2...1....0...0
Aluminum _____11...3....2...0
lead __________ 16...0....3...1
Copper ________25...8....4...3
Tin ___________ Silver ________ Titanium _____ Silicon ________ 7...3....4...2
Boron ________ 1...3...16..17
Sodium _______ 8...3....10...8
Potassium ____ Molybdenum _ Phosphorus ___1026...935…1032…698
Zinc __________ 1135...1228…1055...988
Calcium ______ 1454…167...2108…1898
Barium ______ Magnesium __1219...526…53...19
Antimony ____ Vanadium ____ Fuel %Vol ____ Flash_______not done..335..320..300
Abs Oxid _____ 34...10..127...95
Abs Nitr ______ 11....8....8....7
Wtr %vol ____ Vis CS 100C __ 15.8....11.8….8.6….9.8
Vic CS 40C___not done…66….44….48
SAE Grade _____40....30....20....30
Gly test ______NEG…..0.37 “not antifreeze”…...0…..0
TBN _________not done...7.9....5.9...6.4
TAN _________not done...1.7....1.4...1.3
Visc Index___not done…154...177...192
Soot_________not done...0....0.01....0

AEHaas

 

[oggb]

Interested to know how the cars are driven. Track days/etc? Or just cruisers?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Compared Enzo Ferrari UOA from years ago: This is my neighbor’s 2003 Ferrari Enzo with a total of 8,800 miles on the left column and my 2003 Enzo with a total of 4,400 miles on the right column (middle 2 columns, earlier UOA of my car). Both cars had about 1,400 miles on the oil. His obviously had more break-in time. He had the oil changed by the Ferrari dealer using the required 10W-60 Shell Helix Ultra Racing oil. I ran 0W30 Castrol GC in the second column, the original formula of RLI in the 3rd column and the “new and improved “ RLI “Dr. Haas Enzo Formula" in the last column.

Yours is also breaking in more with every oil change. IMO, can't really use his car as a baseline for your car. Could be other factors going on between the two cars (like parts tolerance stack ups, etc) that makes an invalid wear comparison. Put some factory specified oil in your car and see if the wear goes up.

 

[jqgz]

Dr. Haas I have a curiosity you may be able to answer. Your testing has largely been with the Ferrari Enzo, an engineering marvel from a well-known supercar brand. I am curious if you don't see issues running thinner oil in it because it is overbuilt for your purposes. Any good supercar should be able to handle long hot drives on tracks, conditions which push the components to their limits. Likewise, driving them around town is so gentle on them that even if you are dangerously thin on the oil, it's not going to cause much wear. An average passenger car like my Subaru Impreza isn't built for the track. It's meant to get me to work at 65mph and handle modest acceleration at times. If I dropped below the 0w-20 recommended oil I think I would have a wear problem as the car is not overbuilt to handle an extreme.

 

[AEHaas]

First, no track days, would use a thicker oil if I ran it around at 200 MPH. But I do like to burn rubber from a standing start in town.

"Could be other factors going on between the two cars (like parts tolerance stack ups, etc) that makes an invalid wear comparison."
True. OR the results may in fact be indicative of the results. I'm going with the later. Again, Ferrari has spec'd thicker oils for racing and thinner oils for around town in various owners manuals.

"Put some factory specified oil in your car and see if the wear goes up."
'Wish I thought of that control experiment. Too late now. I bought the car with a few hundred miles on it already. The Ferrari dealer delivered the car to me with 5-40 oil in there at my request. They did not fight me on the request, did not say the warranty would be void, did not tell me they were worried at all. They actually thought it was a good idea.

AEHaas

 

[ZeeOSix]

"Could be other factors going on between the two cars (like parts tolerance stack ups, etc) that makes an invalid wear comparison."
True. OR the results may in fact be indicative of the results. I'm going with the later. Again, Ferrari has spec'd thicker oils for racing and thinner oils for around town in various owners manuals.

The best test is on the same car, and changing only one factor at a time.

What viscosity does Ferrari recommend for around town driving?

"Put some factory specified oil in your car and see if the wear goes up."
'Wish I thought of that control experiment. Too late now. I bought the car with a few hundred miles on it already.

Not too late. It's actually a good test to do after the engine is well broke-in so the break-in wear factor is out of the picture.

 

[AEHaas]

Sold the car a month ago, Now driving the 812 Superfast. I have not figured out exactly how I will proceed as every Ferrari now comes with 7 years of free service. All routine services are covered. I suppose I could have them put in whatever oil I want next time it is due for a change.

 

[bbhero]

Dr. Haas if I'm not mistaken NASCAR and Indy car run 20 viscosity oils in their race cars on race day.... Certainly helps with power addition vs running a SAE 10w60 viscosity. And fuel economy too.

 

[AEHaas]

More interesting is that Formula 1 cars run thin oils and the engines must be used (and be able to win) 3 or 4 races without being touched, no rebuilds. Oh and no refueling during a race.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Dr. Haas if I'm not mistaken NASCAR and Indy car run 20 viscosity oils in their race cars on race day.... Certainly helps with power addition vs running a SAE 10w60 viscosity. And fuel economy too.

Oil coolers up the ying-yang. Plus those engines are built to win a race, not for longevity. Goes with F1 cars too ^^^.

 

[bbhero]

Well yeah,... They run 20+ quarts of oil in the cup car motors....

 

[bbhero]

More interesting is that Formula 1 cars run thin oils and the engines must be used (and be able to win) 3 or 4 races without being touched, no rebuilds. Oh and no refueling during a race.

Haven't watched F-1 in a good awhile.....

They don't refuel during their races now???

Wow... Shortened those races up a good bit then. Or far bigger fuel load allowed now.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Well yeah,... They run 20+ quarts of oil in the cup car motors....

That also helps, and easier to effectively cool a large sump volume vs a small sump volume going round and round at a high rate.

 

[bbhero]

Got that right... 5 qt or 6 qt oil capacity would get extremely hot quite quickly running on a large track circumstance.

 

[AEHaas]

If I remember correctly NASCAR engines have around 7 or 8 qts and F1 half of that for oil capacities. ' May have to look that one up.

 

[4WD]

If I remember correctly NASCAR engines have around 7 or 8 qts and F1 half of that for oil capacities. ' May have to look that one up.

That’s gallons ?

 

[#18FAN]

Haven't watched F-1 in a good awhile.....

They don't refuel during their races now???

Wow... Shortened those races up a good bit then. Or far bigger fuel load allowed now.

No refueling for years strictly for safety period. You can not compare a F1 powerplant to a street car in any possible way.

 

[4WD]

That’s gallons ?

One of your cars holds 20 quarts

car 10 specifications

Production Ford Fusion Stewart-Haas Racing Ford

www.stewarthaasracing.com

 

[bbhero]

No refueling for years strictly for safety period. You can not compare a F1 powerplant to a street car in any possible way.

Wasn't comparing f-1 to a regular vehicle. Aka how they are run....

Max rpm vs typical street use is of course exceptionally different.

Safety... What a joke.... This nonsense is getting ridiculous.

 

[bbhero]

Nascar cup cars maybe around 28 quarts.... At least what I just read and looked up.... 7 gallons...