How much over the speed limit is too much?

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Pew
Originally Posted by StevieC
It's not speed by itself there will always be some other factor not mentioned. Like speeding too fast for what the road conditions warrant, not seeing a curve ahead, taking the eyes off the road for a second, fumbling with the radio. Whatever...


This is the biggest thing. It's all situation dependent, but I'm willing to bet it's almost always a driver issue, not a speed issue.


Speed limits are set to try and cover the "driving skills" of most people on the roads. If you make the speed limit 100 MPH on narrow back roads, some people could handle it, but probably the majority of people couldn't. So yeah, how fast someone drives a vehicle is very dependent on their own perceived driving skill. Some people don't even have enough driving skill to not crash even if going the speed limit.

People driving way over the posted speed limit may or may not have the skill to kept the vehicle on the road or not get into an accident with another vehicle ... especially if they don't know the road like the back of their hand. If everyone was 100% paying attention to their driving, and drove at the speed limit or at a speed appropriate for conditions, then chances of crashing go way down. Start increasing speeds higher and higher, and start distracting yourself from driving (playing with the cell phone, eating, etc while driving) and you'll have a recipe for disaster.



So then classify it as driver error or driver skill level and not the speed itself. All this does is puts the ideas in peoples head that speeding automatically leads to accidents which then creates drivers doing 10 under the limit in the left lane because "Speed kills" when it's idiots that are either unskilled or doing dangerous things not warranted for the current road/traffic conditions that kills. We need to fix the driver not penalize everyone for speed because people are incapable of operating a vehicle properly. It seems to work just fine for Europe, yet here we can't fathom the idea and so we all sit in traffic because "speed kills".

 

[BigD1]

"Speeding is a type of aggressive driving behavior. Several factors have contributed to an overall rise in aggressive driving." Source: NHTSA


TRAFFIC
Traffic congestion is one of the most frequently mentioned contributing factors to aggressive driving, such as speeding. Drivers may respond by using aggressive driving behaviors, including speeding, changing lanes frequently, or becoming angry at anyone who they believe impedes their progress.

RUNNING LATE
Some people drive aggressively because they have too much to do and are "running late" for work, school, their next meeting, lesson, soccer game, or other appointment.

ANONYMITY
A motor vehicle insulates the driver from the world. Shielded from the outside environment, a driver can develop a sense of detachment, as if an observer of their surroundings, rather than a participant. This can lead to some people feeling less constrained in their behavior when they cannot be seen by others and/or when it is unlikely that they will ever again see those who witness their behavior.

DISREGARD FOR OTHERS AND FOR THE LAW
Most motorists rarely drive aggressively, and some never do. For others, episodes of aggressive driving are frequent, and for a small proportion of motorists it is their usual driving behavior. Occasional episodes of aggressive driving-such as speeding and changing lanes abruptly-might occur in response to specific situations, like when the driver is late for an important appointment, but is not the driver's normal behavior.

If it seems that there are more cases of rude and outrageous behavior on the road now than in the past, the observation is correct-if for no other reason than there are more drivers driving more miles on the same roads than ever before.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by grampi



While I agree that slower drivers should move right, who is more wrong, the driver driving in the left lane at the speed limit holding other drivers up, or those speeding?




Easy- it's the idiots who camp out in the left lane; if those morons want to enforce the speed limit they should find a job in law enforcement.


So it's ok to break the law by speeding, but not ok to break the law impeding traffic flow?


In my home State, the law states: "Must move right to let faster traffic pass."

That means that if you're doing 110 mph in the left lane, and someone comes up behind you going faster, you MUST move right to let the faster vehicle pass.

Of course they can get a ticket for speeding. But you can also get a ticket for speeding AND not moving right.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix


A lot of one car accidents are a result of speed ... the driver unable to control the vehicle, especially on curves.


That's just evolution in action.

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

"A new study out from the National Transportation Safety Board declares there's a singular and unequivocal reason for the uptick in deaths: Speed is what's killing Americans."

https://www.curbed.com/2017/7/28/16051780/us-traffic-death-speeding-statistics-speeding

"The study looked at U.S. passenger vehicle crashes from 2005 to 2014 and found that speeding was the main factor in 112,580 deaths, or about 31 percent of all traffic fatalities."

"Speed - and therefore speeding - increases crash risk in two ways: (1) it increases the likelihood of being involved in a crash, and (2) it increases the severity of injuries sustained by all road users in a crash."

https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2017-DCA15SS002-BMG-Abstract.pdf


Who determined that speeding was the cause of the fatal accident? A trained reconstruction export or a SWAG by an untrained LEO? Was the "speeding" actual driving in excess of the speed limit or was it "too fast for conditions?"
The NTSB is like any other Federal agency in that it needs to find excuses for its existence; the NTSB, IIHS, and the rest of the Safety Gestapo are not especially credible in my eyes.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted by BigD1
"Speeding is a type of aggressive driving behavior. Several factors have contributed to an overall rise in aggressive driving." Source: NHTSA


TRAFFIC
Traffic congestion is one of the most frequently mentioned contributing factors to aggressive driving, such as speeding. Drivers may respond by using aggressive driving behaviors, including speeding, changing lanes frequently, or becoming angry at anyone who they believe impedes their progress.

RUNNING LATE
Some people drive aggressively because they have too much to do and are "running late" for work, school, their next meeting, lesson, soccer game, or other appointment.

ANONYMITY
A motor vehicle insulates the driver from the world. Shielded from the outside environment, a driver can develop a sense of detachment, as if an observer of their surroundings, rather than a participant. This can lead to some people feeling less constrained in their behavior when they cannot be seen by others and/or when it is unlikely that they will ever again see those who witness their behavior.

DISREGARD FOR OTHERS AND FOR THE LAW
Most motorists rarely drive aggressively, and some never do. For others, episodes of aggressive driving are frequent, and for a small proportion of motorists it is their usual driving behavior. Occasional episodes of aggressive driving-such as speeding and changing lanes abruptly-might occur in response to specific situations, like when the driver is late for an important appointment, but is not the driver's normal behavior.

If it seems that there are more cases of rude and outrageous behavior on the road now than in the past, the observation is correct-if for no other reason than there are more drivers driving more miles on the same roads than ever before.


Ah yes, the NHTSA Nazis- I find their tortured arguments SO convincing...

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by BigD1
"Speeding is a type of aggressive driving behavior. Several factors have contributed to an overall rise in aggressive driving." Source: NHTSA


TRAFFIC
Traffic congestion is one of the most frequently mentioned contributing factors to aggressive driving, such as speeding. Drivers may respond by using aggressive driving behaviors, including speeding, changing lanes frequently, or becoming angry at anyone who they believe impedes their progress.

RUNNING LATE
Some people drive aggressively because they have too much to do and are "running late" for work, school, their next meeting, lesson, soccer game, or other appointment.

ANONYMITY
A motor vehicle insulates the driver from the world. Shielded from the outside environment, a driver can develop a sense of detachment, as if an observer of their surroundings, rather than a participant. This can lead to some people feeling less constrained in their behavior when they cannot be seen by others and/or when it is unlikely that they will ever again see those who witness their behavior.

DISREGARD FOR OTHERS AND FOR THE LAW
Most motorists rarely drive aggressively, and some never do. For others, episodes of aggressive driving are frequent, and for a small proportion of motorists it is their usual driving behavior. Occasional episodes of aggressive driving-such as speeding and changing lanes abruptly-might occur in response to specific situations, like when the driver is late for an important appointment, but is not the driver's normal behavior.

If it seems that there are more cases of rude and outrageous behavior on the road now than in the past, the observation is correct-if for no other reason than there are more drivers driving more miles on the same roads than ever before.


Ah yes, the NHTSA Nazis- I find their tortured arguments SO convincing...

Let's add the increasing number of influenced drivers. More and more states are legalizing pot. I've definitely seen a increase here in Washington.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted by PimTac

Let's add the increasing number of influenced drivers. More and more states are legalizing pot. I've definitely seen a increase here in Washington.


Precisely!!!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by StevieC
So then classify it as driver error or driver skill level and not the speed itself.


If somone crashes while going over the speed limit, then they were technically "speeding" regardless if they had the skill to drive that fast or not. The chance of a "driver error" hapoening will increase as speed increases. Lack of driving skill for the speed people drive doesn't negate the speed factor of the crash.

Originally Posted by StevieC
We need to fix the driver not penalize everyone for speed because people are incapable of operating a vehicle properly. It seems to work just fine for Europe, yet here we can't fathom the idea and so we all sit in traffic because "speed kills".

So you think it's OK for unskilled drivers to excessively speed on all the public roads? The cops don't have a list of drivers "qualified" to drive 100 MPH all day long on roads marked 60 MPH.

There are plenty of crashes happening in Europe and any other country from people driving faster than the limit and faster than their skill level.

... "sit in traffic" because everyone can't drive 100 MPH in unision? Can't even do the speed limit if traffic is to the point that you're "sitting in traffic". At least not without being a total maniac weaving in/out of traffic and putting everyone at risk. The Highway Patrol here has totally unmarked cars looking for such maniacs.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

If somone crashes while going over the speed limit, then they were technically "speeding" regardless if they had the skill to drive that fast or not. The chance of a "driver error" hapoening will increase as speed increases. Lack of driving skill for the speed people drive doesn't negate the speed factor of the crash.


They were also blinking, why wasn't that the cause?

 

[StevieC]

Also I never said it was ok to do 100mph in a 60, that is something you came up with. I also never said that an unskilled driver should be speeding. Only that if an unskilled driver has an accident and was speeding at the time they either had the accident because their skill level couldn't control the car at that speed or they were doing something dangerous that wasn't warranted for the road/traffic conditions, and that the speed itself had nothing to do with it.

As for sitting in traffic, that is created by idiots that are too afraid to go over the limit because they think that speed itself causes accidents when it's anything but the speed itself. It's the skill level and the conditions not warranting the speed. How are they ever going to learn to operate a vehicle at a higher rate of speed without proper education and the chance to actually go faster if we keep telling them that the speed itself is the cause of accidents and not other factors or other factors combined with the speed that I mentioned.

 

[PimTac]

As for sitting in traffic, that is created by idiots that are too afraid to go over the limit because they think that speed itself causes accidents when it's anything but the speed itself. It's the skill level and the conditions not warranting the speed.



They must have a different kind of traffic in Ontario. Traffic is caused by too many vehicles on the road. If you are speeding in traffic then you have to be reckless. The swerving in and out like some Fast and Furious wannabe is dangerous and the cops look for stuff like that.

 

[StevieC]

Yeah idiots in the left lane doing 10 under the limit under the assumption that speed kills. DAILY I encounter them.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Yeah idiots in the left lane doing 10 under the limit under the assumption that speed kills. DAILY I encounter them.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Also I never said it was ok to do 100mph in a 60, that is something you came up with. I also never said that an unskilled driver should be speeding. Only that if an unskilled driver has an accident and was speeding at the time they either had the accident because their skill level couldn't control the car at that speed or they were doing something dangerous that wasn't warranted for the road/traffic conditions, and that the speed itself had nothing to do with it.


I'm talking about excessive speeds, not going 5~10 MPH over in a 60 MPH zone. Where I'm at hardly anyone drives at the limit or below. On the freeways 95% of the cars are doing 5~10 over. Then there's the maniacs that think they can drive 80+ in heavy traffic, and are weaving in/out of every hole just big enough to get a car in - the guys the Highway Patrol are loking for. Those are the instances I'm talking about, and the speed is a big factor contributing to the risk level in those driving conditions.

Speed can also be a huge risk factor if someone was going excessively above the speed limit on narrow twisty back roads. Seen plenty of news reports of a car full of kids going 80+ MPH on a back road that loses control and goes off the road and kills people - a one car crash due to excessive speed combined with lack of skill. If they kept the speed down to within their skill level (ie, the speed limit or slightly over) they most likely wouldn't t have crashed on that same stretch of road.

Originally Posted by StevieC
As for sitting in traffic, that is created by idiots that are too afraid to go over the limit because they think that speed itself causes accidents when it's anything but the speed itself. It's the skill level and the conditions not warranting the speed. How are they ever going to learn to operate a vehicle at a higher rate of speed without proper education and the chance to actually go faster if we keep telling them that the speed itself is the cause of accidents and not other factors or other factors combined with the speed that I mentioned.


Unfortunately, roads are public use that are shared by everyone, all driving at their own pace based on their perception and skill. Only time you're going to see a place where everyone is pretty much equally skilled and can all drive fast as they want to is on a closed race track.

Yeah, it's not fun driving around lots of idiots that can't drive - I've been experiencing that for decades where I'm at. And it's just getting worse as the roads get more conjested, and the focus on driving and what seems like a continued decrease in driving skills magnifies the chaos.

 

[PimTac]

ZeeOSix,


Like I said before, I consider it a blessing when I can do the speed limit on the freeways around here. As for the left lane, they get enough money out of me as it is. I refuse to pay for access.

The reckless F&F drivers are the worst. I see them everyday I drive.

Your comment is right on.

 

[ZeeOSix]

PimTac - yeah, I agree. I try to hit the back roads if I want to drive and have some fun without too many maniacs trying to run me off the road.

I commuted 50 miles round trip in rush hour for decades and saw all kinds of crazy driving, including big time F&F speeders causing all kinds of havoc.

 

[PimTac]

ZeeOSix,

That's exactly what I do. In Pierce Co I drive around Buckley, South Prairie, and south around Kapowsin and Eatonville. The Tacoma-Puyallup-South Hill area just wont let anyone drive at speed. With all the construction ongoing for the past twenty years or so and still going I see no end in site.

Once out of the metro there are some great spots to just cruise.

 

[Nederlander75]

Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by PimTac

Let's add the increasing number of influenced drivers. More and more states are legalizing pot. I've definitely seen a increase here in Washington.


Precisely!!!

Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by PimTac

Let's add the increasing number of influenced drivers. More and more states are legalizing pot. I've definitely seen a increase here in Washington.


Precisely!!!


This has been our observation in CO too.

 

[FCD]

So doing 110mph in a 60 zone is not ok?

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted by StevieC
If speed truly killed by itself and not following too closely, driving recklessly, weaving in/out, cutting people off, or where weather didn't permit then we would see far more accidents then we do. Speed by itself doesn't kill!


When have you ever seen drivers doing any of these things without speeding?