Harley 360 oil, VR1 oil conventional. High Heat

[Bonz]

It was respectfully directed at the comment about what it says on the bottle vs a manufacturers recommendation and it was not a deflection. There are so many posts embedded within the quotes that I can't tell who wrote what sometimes.

Mobil or Shell (Rotella), there are others as well, have proven their worth in engines by analysis on this forum that we all frequent. Those companies also haven't going through a formal certification process in some instances but print stuff on a bottle. With respect to V-Twin 20w50 it's not even at MA rated. And I bet it is because the high phosphorus content precludes that certification. However it was a really good oil for over 5,000 miles in my ZRX 1200 shared sump. One of the best I've used and tested. Proof is in the pudding, not words on a bottle or lack thereof, IMO.

Those companies are in putting their reputation on the line and would not put a product out there that doesn't protect (which is what oil does) and lo and behold analysis shows the same thing. They aren't risking anything and a motorcycle wouldn't be risking anything either.

However if every spec and detail matches up, absolutely follow it even if there's less options to choose from. That makes folks sleep better with peace of mind and I'm not going to argue with that...

 

[alarmguy]

I understand where you are coming from. I am just stating (respectably) some of these posts are a little misleading and the topic is for a Harley engine to say on subject and also past posts by you and also me.
You mention Mobil and Shell haven't gone through those certifications. Yes they have. they are API rated oils and that is all Harley calls for.

Mobil 1 20w50 Motorcycle oil isnt certified in anyway but of course, I certainly trust their claim of SG,SH & CF even though its not confirmed by anyone. Sadly the Mobil 1 motorcycle oil is too low rated for Harley engines.

Im not sure why a debate for Harley engine oil, Harley clearly allows a Diesel Rated oil of CH4+ or better if not using their own oil, so why even bother with a oil that is rated lower and cost more money or the same amount of money as Amsoil which does make such an oil?
Also we all know Mystic makes an oil that cost around $14 a gallon that meets these higher specs.

I mean, would we put Mobile 1 motorcycle oil rated for SG,SH & CF oil in a $60,000 truck that requires CH4+ or higher rated HDEO oil?
Then why do we put lower rated oil like Mobil 1 motorcycle oil in a $25,000 motorcycle? You can buy Amsoil or Mystic and actually have an oil that meets and exceeds the rating Harley calls for.

Oil is oil no matter car, truck or bike, all I am saying once again, why bother with all this, we choose the proper rated oil for our other vehicles but we like to play expert for our bikes and most riders never even ride a bike past the 100,000 mile mark anyway so would never know if they are doing damage or not, they take as "normal" if their little 2 cylinder motorcycle uses/burns the same amount of oil as their 4, 6 or 8 cyclinder automobile, which is weird and maybe wouldn't happen if we used the oil that is called for, instead of something lower rated.

 

[Bonz]

I was referring specifically to JASO certifications with respect to motorcycling in general, not specific to one brand of bike or another. The high phosphorus of the M1 20w50 won't allow that. Rotella "meets the specifications' but isn't officially certified unless something's happened very recently.

Looking back to what I was sharing about analysis and what the oil shows after it has been in my engine for 5000 miles. It is not a Harley however the information is valid to support the point that regardless of official certification or rating, it performs as well as anything for wear numbers. Also maintains consistent shift quality and has a crap ton of remaining active ingredients based upon TBN. There are motorcycle oils and HDEO's that have more certifications regardless of the bike they're meant to be used in that don't perform as well with respect to shift quality after just a few thousand miles as noted on the forum at various times by different people. I said it once recently and I really do take my shift quality seriously. That's an important element with a motorcycle.

Non-shared sump in a Harley is a different life for an engine oil. It has been noted the 20w50 V-Twin gets thicker the longer it is run in a Harley in most cases we've seen and talked about. Interesting it's a V-Twin oil however performs best in a shared sump engine based on analysis and the thickening.

I'll refrain from straying off topic and leave it to the Harley guys to duke it out, LOL. I couldn't share any more than I have already in the thread.

 

[alarmguy]

That makes two of us!
As you know I was just discussing non shared sump HD and I agree with you on shared sump 🙃
Also as you know for the first time I'm running a non HDEO Mobil 1 15/50 just an experiment to see if there's any difference in oil temperatures. I suspect I'll be back to Mystic after this but who knows?
I suspect but need to run it for a couple thousand miles get my impression is it seems when the engine is hot and I start the engine I hear a little more clatter with the mobil 1
Time will tell and I honestly report my findings

 

[BigCahuna]

Alarmguy, have you ever given thought to running 60 wt oil in your bike in the summer?. It might be interesting to see what if any difference in temps you might see. Being Harley recommends using it if your common air temps are over 80f. You mentioned some oils thicken up when run hot, I'm thinking that's not such a big deal if the moco recommends thicker oil.,,,

 

[Bonz]

Mobil 15w50 after 4,090 miles in my shared sump with a flash point of 400°, showed Sus Vis of 71.4. at 210° F. I believe that's in the 40 weight range.

Just went back and looked at some stuff from years ago.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by BigCahuna
Alarmguy, have you ever given thought to running 60 wt oil in your bike in the summer?. It might be interesting to see what if any difference in temps you might see. Being Harley recommends using it if your common air temps are over 80f. You mentioned some oils thicken up when run hot, I'm thinking that's not such a big deal if the moco recommends thicker oil.,,,


Its not a bad thought yet, I am so happy with the way my bike runs, dont feel the need too. I know you have had Harleys a long time and I can certainly see when I ride in 100 degree heat a 60 weight wouldn't be bad but honestly, most of that riding is on the interstate and oil temps stay below 257 to be exact. Only time is stuck in beach traffic when we ride to the coast and I bought a Lenale engine fan for that. Its very rare I use it but nice to have. Some years ago for fun I did swap out the OEM 8 row oil cooler for a 10 row Jagg. Dont think it make much difference but I cant remember, it was a fun project.Except stuck in traffic which is rare for me, highest oil temps are without question moving 80MPH on the interstate.


Since I bought my 2014 Road King back in 2014, my first ever Harley. I expected the bike to "fall apart" based on forum BS from some other forums and it has turned out to be the most awesome bike I ever owned. never, to this day needed a repair. (god I am going to hate saying that) I also know now my next bike will most likely be an HD but, not getting any younger and I dont know, the prices bother me more then they did back in 2014, even though the Road King isnt priced much different.

... below is a UOA on the Mystic and text, posted here some time ago ...

Posted By: alarmguyMystik JT8 15w50 HEDO - 2014 Road King, AUG. 2017 - 08/09/17 11:04 AM
Not much to say, been using Mystik JT8 SEMI SYN GAS/DIESEL HEDO 15w50 for quite some time now and still getting the same better then good results.

This recent oil has seen some rare but actual measured temperatures with my digital dipstick in the upper 260s and peaks in the mid 270s during some near 100 degree weather stopped in traffic.
Not a big deal but the highest I ever measured. Normal high speed temperatures are not unusual on long trips, 2up, 80 MPH in the 250 degree range on super hot days, recent high speed trip was 257 degrees coming home from the mountains.
Anyway, all is good, oil can take it. Harley states normal as 230 so the temps are not too high.

I do now have a Lenale engine cooling fan and saw in actual use once its turned on engine oil stabilized and went down slightly. Im not promoting cooling fans, engine and oil is made for heat. I do this stuff for fun projects and I like the look of the new Lenale much better then the horn cover )

Reports on 7/19/15 and 6/8/15 are Harley Conventional oil.
Reports on 12/12/15, 8/7/16 and 7/29/17 are Mystik JT8 15w50.

 

[Bonz]

Hi alarmguy, simply for the sake of good discussion, I'm looking at your cSt on the most recent JT8 analysis from '17. Looks like it's thinned below a 50 weight, even with a relatively good flashpoint number of 410 degrees F. Minimum spec for a 50 weight is 16.3, this shows 14.96.

Looks like each analysis you did is below that threshold other than the one from August of 2016 which just made the cut. Which happens to have the most miles on the oci but also the highest flash point.

My JT8 analysis, granted with a flash point of 395 degrees F and 3,200 miles in a shared sump, was 12.55.

For reference, my M1 10w40 4T OCI was just a bit below your number after almost 5,000 miles in a shared sump with a 410° flashpoint. As well, M1 15w50 after 4,090 mi was 13.32 with 400° flashpoint. Not that good for a 50 weight even though it's a 15w50.

Not apples to apples but looks like JT8 may not be holding up as well in the heat even though it's not a shared sump

I know we've talked about this oil a lot over the years but that just came to my mind.

 

[Jimiii]

Yes alarmguy, I also noticed your oci seem to be quite short. Have you ever run that Mystic for 4-5 thousand miles?

 

[alarmguy]

Yes, You are correct, I noticed that 14.96 and I am good with that. Blackstones "Values" I think are all messed up, weird, dont know where they get their stats from and I dont trust one report.
I look at it as I am at 15 instead of 16 in that last report, still would be a very robust 40 and HD is ok with a 40 as a "second choice".

All in all, for me personally and the operating conditions as well as the temperatures, I am very happy with the oil and all oils I used the difference was less then 1.0 in viscosity. For me, I would be more concerned if the viscosity increased. As far as mileage per oil change, I change sooner rather then later at times. It really depends if I still have winter oil in the bike, I like to change before a trip into the mountains, but all oils do hit a point where viscosity stabilizes, meaning no matter what oil, sooner or later the downward curve stops. Though again, I find your comment on the M1 15/50 interesting.
If you have the number for the 10/40 I would be interested in that too.

If you could clarify the statement regarding M1 15w50 I would be interested. You mention two M1 oils in the statement and I am not sure but you seem to say M1 15w50 ended up in your bike @ 13.32
AS you know as an experiment I am running the M1 15w50 in my bike right now, I dont think I will do a UOA on it but time will tell, I am inclined to go back to the JT8 unless it proves to actually have lower oil temperatures which I dont think will happen. Time will tell. AS you know, I like the JT8 but got bored and wanted to try the Mobile 1 15/50 for fun, even though it claims a below par CF rating for diesel.

Here is the VOA on the 15w50 Mystic JT8 ...
You will notice Blackstone calls it a 15w40 but is a 15w50 entered in the field right on the form =

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by Jimiii
Yes alarmguy, I also noticed your oci seem to be quite short. Have you ever run that Mystic for 4-5 thousand miles?


Yes, Jim, my OCI's are short, longest I ever ran was 8/17/2016 in the report, 165 miles short of 4000 miles that you mentioned and I am happy with that report!

Part of the short OCI reason is the oil only cost me roughly $15 a Gallon delivered, plus I had 4 gallons delivered but because of a mistake they gave me 8 gallons for the price of four and I didnt want the oil sitting around too many years bringing my cost down to around 7.50 a gallon delivered.
The other reason is I ride all winter when I can on days I know the daily high will make it into the 60s. So I change out befor the winter, no matter the mileage and again in the early summer to get the short tripped winter oil out of there. More or less I changed 3 times a year no matter what.

Another reason is, our summer here is around 6 months and for some, it might be called brutal with daily highs for a few months well into the 90s, we do A LOT of 2 up interstate to the beach and Smoky Mountains (last year was the exception) and, well, I enjoy changing the oil, like some like to clean the bike and again, I got it cheap. I do plan, depending again on riding conditions to maybe go down to 2 changes a year. The last two summers and winters have been "off" our normal weather pattern and not as much riding. Plus, my wife wanted a boat last year and that has cut riding down even more. Grrrr ...

My ultimate goal would be around the 4000 mark and honestly, do this with all my vehicles. Normally before winter and then again, for the late spring to following fall.
(in case you haven't noticed Im a fan of the JT8 in the Road King) )
I also use it in my boat and this spring my supply has finally run down roughly 4 years later Im almost done with the 8 gallons. Anyway, I felt the boat engine needed it more then the bike, so bought the M1 15w50 for the bike and my chance to try my experiment which I posted in here.

Im not feeling the love with the M1 compared to the JT8 just YET. I really need a high speed 2 up trip to the beach to finish my experiment on oil temps and will be ready to switch it out because I do have enough after changing the boat JT8 for one more change in the bike. Ill then order more, first time in years, had to finish up the original 8 gallons!

 

[Bonz]

In terms of classifications of oil and their weight ranges, I'm using a standard chart that shows SAE acceptable ranges for a weight to be considered in-grade. This gives something to use as a standardized measuring stick.

Blackstone "should be" values are all over the map and don't adhere to industry standards. When I asked them, they said the starting cSt as rated by the manufacturer (on the low end or high end of SAE specs) is taken into account and they adjust the "should be" values to take into account starting as a lighter 40 weight or a heavier 40 weight, as an example.

SAE range for 40w is 12.5 to 16.3 cSt. For 50w it is 16.3 to 21.9 cSt.

Yes happy to clarify on the two oils.

I was using 10w40 4T example in terms of relatively little shear when starting as a 40 weight (a light one at that @ 13.4 cSt) over almost a 5,000 mile oci in a shared sump. It ended up at 11.98 cSt. Yes, below a 40w based on specs but that's not much shear at all with the kind of power the engine produces and it gets run pretty hard sometimes.

The M1 15w50 in just a little over 4,000 miles (18 cSt rated by Mobil), was down to 13.32 cSt. My feeling is if I'd left it in another 1,000 miles it would have been down to where 10w40 4T ended up. In any case, well out of the 50 weight range and toward the bottom of a 40 weight. Yes it had more viscosity than 10w40 4T but relatively speaking it did not resist sheer as well.

From my analysis, M1 15w50 in my shared sump for a longer oci (4,090 miles) had a cSt of 13.32 versus JT8 15w50 during a shorter oci (3,200 miles) at 12.55 cSt, barely a 40wt.

In a nutshell even with shorter oci's, JT8 is out of spec for a 50 weight oil, in your non shared sump Harley that should be relatively easy on the oil, if the shared non-shared sump element is to be taken into account.

If I read correctly in my research Harley recommends a 5,000 mile oil change interval for the 2014 Road King. JT8 would not make it even as a 40 weight if you add another 2,000 miles to those oci's, IMO.

As I'm processing this more, JT8 oil is out of the 50 weight range and flirting with the lower end of 40 weight range in half the oci recommended by Harley.

I respect everything you have written about JT8 and your reasons for running it. However there are many other oils, specifically 20w50, that have proven to go much longer and maintained better viscosity (stay in grade). Looking at the numbers and not a rating on a bottle, these are every bit as good at protection and should not be overlooked just because they don't meet the Harley spec down to the letter.

Heck, you already broke code running the 15w50 M1 in your engine for this current oci. Maybe this will stay in grade and you'll have a new oil. I would seriously take a sample at 2,500 to 3,000 Miles and send it for analysis. The time it takes to get the analysis back you won't put that many more miles on your engine. If analysis shows it's doing well keep it in. If not take it out.

 

[alarmguy]

Im fully aware of viscosity range and Blackstones interpretation.

Thanks for your reply and explaining the M1 10/40. It did shear out of grade.
Respectfully I completely disagree on your theory as far as shearing and mileage. Its just a theory but has never been proved that they would have sheared further.
Quite honestly that goes for all bikes and oils, I see those comments time to time and I could not disagree more, regarding more mileage would have sheared more and never proven.

To say the M1 would have sheared further if you didnt change it is unproven.
To say the JT8 would have sheared further even below a 40 is unproven, actually in this case that statement is ridiculous.
Its a fact that oils in motorcycles hit a viscosity where shearing levels out, they just dont keep going down to 0

To say the JT8 had a relatively easy time in an air cooled engine with oil 250 to 270 degrees at times is also incorrect.
Also in this mix, we are talking Harley engines and your ref to your shared sump bike can "confuse" some people.


I only debate facts, problem with forums is there is a theory and comment for any subject void of fact. We are all entitled to our opinions and I do completely respect that.
As long as others who read it, know its not fact and it is speculation

The only fact here is my substantial reporting of UOAs show excellent reports on the 103 HP engine using JT8 and it slipping down a grade to a 40 and borderline 50.
We also know the fact based on my VOA that the 15/50 is at the lighter range of a 50 when brand knew and honestly what I liked about the oil.

I also rather have the oil go down a bit in viscosity rather then up a grade which M1 motorcycle and Amsoil Motorcycle oil does in non shared sump bikes, if it wasnt for those two well known names people would trash going up a grade and "speculate" the oil is oxidizing which means turning to sludge in the old days. Heck for all we know it is turning to sludge (speculation on my part)


Cheers
( I would toast a beer with you, but for some reason "html" doesnt show up on my Mac? as an option)

 

[alarmguy]

Bonz-

BTW, you made this comment in your post above as well, you knew full well my use of M1 15/50 was an oil experiment but made this misleading comment like you didnt. I respected your posts in the past but that just ended with your comment below, only posting it for others as not everyone reads a complete thread.
You wrote as follows

"Looking at the numbers and not a rating on a bottle, these are every bit as good at protection and should not be overlooked just because they don't meet the Harley spec down to the letter.

Heck, you already broke code running the 15w50 M1 in your engine for this current oci."

If anyone is interested in your comment and how it relates then they should read the whole thread.
Your comment is completely misleading to anyone reading this thread and ANYONE who knows me, knows I 100% believe in following manufacturers suggestions/requirements when putting oil in my cars, trucks, boats and bikes, also if you have a piston aircraft but for some reason people who buy $20,000 + motorcycles think they know better then the manufacturer.

Sorry but I am not going to take suggestions in forums (or oil manufacturers) to select an out of spec oil to use in my motorcycle any more then I would in a car, truck or boat. (or aircraft)

 

[Bonz]

I gather the VOA of JT8 is from the same 8 gallons you have been using in your bike and boat? If yes, do you have any idea where the large uptick in zinc and phosphorus comes from in the used oil samples?

As well, I haven't given enough creedence to the fact a 15w50 uses more viscosity improver vs 20w50, it would have a higher tendency to shear, IMO.

It goes without saying the oil would not sheer down to zero.
However if we are one and done on analysis, and run it for half of a manufacturer's recommended oil change interval, I don't think we really would know how much it would ultimately shear. That goes for me as well, I sample my oil at the end, I had been changing oil sooner than Kawasaki recommends and don't know at what point it levels off.

Hmmm... Maybe I'll go for a good ride today and get a sample of the 10w40 4T out the fill hole and send it to Blackstone. It's almost 3,000 miles since I changed the oil last fall. And I've been running it pretty hard at times doing some tuning with the carbs and also different base timing combinations using different ignition rotors. My goal was to stretch this oci out to 6,000 miles. This will be a great indicator as to how the oil is holding up this time around.

 

[Saltysquid]

Interesting points. Thank you.
I realize some have said to stick with the formula plus for the transmission. It seems harley recommends the formula plus and now lists the 80-140 as an acceptable option. My concern is 80-140 seems absurdly thick compared to 75-90 recommended elsewhere . Am i wrong in this? Will this cause clutch drag? I ride two up often and harley lists this as an option for the sporty. Is this a lot different from formula plus? Thanks

 

[BigCahuna]

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I wouldn't use any of Harley's oils. I have in the past and absolutely did not feel they justified the price. My motors used Harley oil to the point I thought there was something wrong. Their synthetic oil made the motor noisy, compared to their mineral oil. i was not happy with those results. After reading what their formula plus oil was in the Voa section, no way is that worth what they charge to me. I'm old school and use Valvoline mineral 20/50 in the motor year round. Works like a charm in my old Road King. I use Rotella t 15/40 wt in the primary. It shifts like butter, and costs half of Harley's oil. I've found using any 20/50 wt in the primary causes that 1st gear bang, when going into gear.And difficulty finding neutral when it's hot.I believe that's caused by it causing drag on the plates. I've been using 70/90 wt gear oil in my trans for years. My bike has over 75 k on it , and requires only a light push on the lever to change gears. It took a while for me to figure out what works, and that the expensive boutique oils are not worth the money as far a being super duper more betterer, then the common everyday oils available everywhere oils. Also, if you buy a Harley new, and use their oils religiously, and something goes wrong with something after the warranty period, they will not stand behind their product even if they performed the service themselves. Something else to digest when they try to make you feel guilty for not using their oils. But it;s your money.,,,

 

[Jimiii]

Bonz- as far as the oil shearing in a shared sump, taking extreme heat out of the equation, the "VI's" will be broken into useless little pieces within the first 600-800 miles by the transmission gears. Very little shearing will continue, at least at a much slower rate, after that. The reason true synthetic bases (group 4/5), shear less is that they need far less "VI's", as a real synthetic oil base does not thin as much with heat, so there are less VI's" to begin with- less to get ground up in transmission. Your example indicates the Mobil 1 10-40 cycle oil has more quality base to begin with, then does the 15-50.
If alarmguy sends off his 15-50 fo analysis, it will be interesting to see how it holds up when subjected to only high heat. BTW I use only Mobil 1 15-50 in my 2014 limited with 4000 mile oci's.
My previous bike was an 1800 Goldwing and I used Mobil 1 5-40 turbo diesel in it for the entire 108,000 miles I owned it. I did do an analysis, 4000 mile oci. The 5-40 did shear slightly in that shared sump Goldwing, but stayed close.
Alarmguy- I agree that if you get the Mystic cheap, and change it often, and the oil is doing its job for the miles it is in the engine, that's a good plan.

 

[Bonz]

I agree, looking forward to seeing how high heat effects the M1 15w50.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by Bonz
I gather the VOA of JT8 is from the same 8 gallons you have been using in your bike and boat? If yes, do you have any idea where the large uptick in zinc and phosphorus comes from in the used oil samples?

As well, I haven't given enough creedence to the fact a 15w50 uses more viscosity improver vs 20w50, it would have a higher tendency to shear, IMO.

It goes without saying the oil would not sheer down to zero.
However if we are one and done on analysis, and run it for half of a manufacturer's recommended oil change interval, I don't think we really would know how much it would ultimately shear. That goes for me as well, I sample my oil at the end, I had been changing oil sooner than Kawasaki recommends and don't know at what point it levels off.

Hmmm... Maybe I'll go for a good ride today and get a sample of the 10w40 4T out the fill hole and send it to Blackstone. It's almost 3,000 miles since I changed the oil last fall. And I've been running it pretty hard at times doing some tuning with the carbs and also different base timing combinations using different ignition rotors. My goal was to stretch this oci out to 6,000 miles. This will be a great indicator as to how the oil is holding up this time around.





Its been so long I can not possibly remember if the VOA sample came from the 8 gallons. I am almost certain the sample did not come from them for this reason. I would not have ordered 4 gallons of oil for any vehicle unless I loved the oil. When first trying out the JT8 it was before the 4 gallon purchase and running "tests" as I was so Leary of an oil I never heard of before..
With that said, we all know, Blackstone is not a "Lab" standard when testing anything, right down to the crazy non standard Viscosity ranges.

Again on the shearing issue. Its only speculation on how far an oil will shear but many tests on some oils such as Rotella T6 5/40 in Yamaha 1300 showed severe shearing to a 30 (ever a robust 20) but always leveled off in that range. It doesnt keep going down to zero by any means. The oil starts off at a certain viscosity. FYI I personally thought people who ran that oil were doing no favors for their engines and once again, in this case they were running an out of "spec" weight to put well known cheap syn in the engine instead of an in "spec" conventional oil.
I intend to stick with the proper grade oil in time which for HD is a "C" rated HDEO not an automotive "S" rated, though we know most C rated oils also carry an "S" rating.
The closest "S" rated oil that I could find to a "C" rated is the Mobile 1 15/50 but its an obsolete "CF"

Amsoil makes a great 15/50 HDEO but I just dont believe the cost justifies it. Then again, who knows, for fun one day, maybe Ill run it.
My biggest problem is my time off, the bike, now competes with my wifes desire to go on "her" boat )