Harley 360 oil, VR1 oil conventional. High Heat

[Bonz]

I hear what you're saying on that alarmguy, appreciate your great counterpoint, LOL!

I'm thinking more in terms of the oil not shearing down and shift quality falling off.

The theme I keep bringing up his shift quality, shift quality, shift quality. If I change conventional oil when the shift quality drops off I am changing oil more often.

The protective properties haven't gone away, we're on the same page there.

 

[Saltysquid]

Some interesting points. I did agree VR1 shines in high heat applications. I guess neither will blow up my engine. Being the paranoid type it makes me warm and fuzzy to buy the redline after reading about it. No real logic other than im thinking the ester won't break down as fast and have better flow properties.

I plan on an upgraded exhaust air filter and fuel map( shock of shocks) would the vr1 do good for this? Most of this speculation is for my entertainment.

Im inclined to think vr1 would kick butt for my application. Due to the engine hopefully running better not being choked up?

 

[Bonz]

Copied this image from an analysis in this section of the forum. I see no reason not to use it. For what it's worth, I have some hard weld cams from webcam as a spare set to replace the ZZR 1200 cams if the pitting gets terrible in my ZRX 1200. Number one thing webcam recommends is 3,000 mile oil changes with a conventional oil such as VR1 because of the zinc content.

They said it's more important to have fresher oil even if additive packages are similar versus older oil. They say it makes no sense to run synthetic and change it every 3,000 miles so conventional is fine.

 

[gman2304]

Seeing this ^^^ excellent uoa with the Vr1 from a 2008 TC 96 Harley, just reinforces my belief that I've been using one of the best oils available for my 2009 TC 96 Harley. After 45,000 miles it still runs like new, and I have never had to add any oil between 3,000 mile OCI's. I do use Redline Shockproof in the transmission and Harley conventional 360 in the primary. All is well.

 

[jm1na]

I hadn't seen this before, but the latest Valvoline VR1 conventional PI Sheet has it approved for API CD/CF. Not approved for SAE 60 or synthetic. I think that should cover HD's HDEO requirement. I wouldn't hesitate on using the 60 wt or the synthetic (which I do use).

https://www.valvoline.com/our-products/motor-oil/vr1-racing-oil
Dated 4/7/20. They are also not listing Flash Point any longer. Click "PI Sheet".

Here is synthetic:
https://www.valvoline.com/our-products/motor-oil/vr1-full-synthetic-racing-motor-oil

 

[Saltysquid]

Man this has got me thinking again....ok so the uoa for the vr1 l looks great. I read a ton of redline uoa which most show high copper wear which i attribute to the cleaning properties of redline based on reading.


If i am running vr1 20-50 conventional in hot temps changing oil every 3000 miles is that better than using redline for 5000 based off uoas?

Id only run this in the engine not the transmission. Which in theory is better for this application all things considered? Id like to go a lot of miles with this bike.

I like to ride aggressively but not stupidly i don't cut in front of cars. I run highway speeds 80 percent of the time. Its 1200 stock motor. I bought a 2-1 exhaust and will be fitting a more free flowing air breather with engine remap. Not often but sometimes traffic is heavy and slow. Opinions uoas?

Thanks

 

[Bonz]

I run Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w 50 and M1 10w40 4T for 5,000 mile oci's in my ZRX 1200 in-line 4 shared sump. Both of them hold shift quality and basically I couldn't ask any more of them. Both had plenty of TBN left and I'm going to leave the 10w40 4T in for 6,000 miles this current oci. Changed it last October, about 1,200 miles so far.

In the oil analysis a few posts back, the oil in the right-hand column is Mobil 1 20w50 VTwin based on the thread it came from.

SUS Vis at 210° F in my analysis after 5,065 miles was 93.3 if I recall in a shared sump. Barely less than the Harley analysis and a Harley analysis only had 1,900 miles. However, M1 V-Twin has a history of getting thicker the longer you leave it in the air cooled twins so I'm not suggesting you run it.

Heres what I would do, simply because oil analysis originally started out to check samples and determine how much service life remained. I would run the VR1, do a sampling at 3,000 Miles and send it in for analysis. By the time you get the results you won't have put a whole lot more miles on the bike, then see if you need to change it based on the analysis.

If there's any indication of oil is wearing out, change it. If not leave it in for 5,000 miles and then change it worry-free.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by Bonz
I hear what you're saying on that alarmguy, appreciate your great counterpoint, LOL!

I'm thinking more in terms of the oil not shearing down and shift quality falling off.

The theme I keep bringing up his shift quality, shift quality, shift quality. If I change conventional oil when the shift quality drops off I am changing oil more often.

The protective properties haven't gone away, we're on the same page there.




Shift quality will not matter between SYN and Conv over time and one will not fall off faster then the other, EXCEPT Mobil 1 and Amsoil motorcycle oils. Its all about the spread in viscosity in other oils, syn or not.
With that said, as you noticed my comments have to do with protective properties, not viscosity break down. Also keep in mind the OP mention of Harley but now I see he is referring to a Harley Roadster, I have no idea if that is shared sump or not.

We are in agreement with Mobil 1 motorcycle oil in shared sumps. Both Mobil 1 and Amsoil do something to their oil formulations for motorcycle oil that the oil actually thickens up which counteracts the shearing by the transmission. If I had a shared sump bike it MAY be my go to oil. Others will rightfully wonder is the oil oxidizing and by oxidizing keeping it thicker ???
If someone runs one of those 2 oils for too long in a on shared bike who knows?

BTW Amsoil actually sells an HDEO for Harleys and vehicles that require it, its different from their regular motorcycle oil.

With that said, the OP is talking Harley and I would stay away from Mobil 1 motorcycle oil in a Harley touring bike or ANY bike without a shared sump.
It has been shown to significantly thicken up, not a big deal as long as you change the oil on time. (again, in non sump shared bikes) but using Mobile 1 motorcycle oil in a Harley you are also not using the recommended HDEO by the manufacturer, again, not a big deal but at the cost, I rather stick with the recommended HDEO or close as possible for the price.

Dont misread my post, Im agreeing with you. Just saying the best oil is the grade mentioned by the manufacturer ... Mobil 1 meets Jaso specs.
Harley touring bikes dont call for Jaso, it calls for CH4+ or higher rated HDEO.

BTW read my post below! I just have gone "off spec" myself for the first time in like, 4+ years. Just for fun and curious.

 

[alarmguy]

Ok, I have gone "off spec" for oil in my Harley Road King witch calls for an HDEO of CH4+ or higher.

After using Mystic JT8 15/50 oil in my 2014 Road King since 2015 with fantastic results. I have put in Mobil 1 15/50 automotive oil. Mobile claims an HDEO C rating of CF on their website which is much below the CH4+ recommended by Harley. But what the heck I am trying it out to test a theory that some claim synthetics will run at lower oil temperatures.
For anyone considering an oil for a Harley Touring bike, without question the 15/50 Mystic JT8 is fantastic and for around $30 for a TWO gallon container delivered to your house ... its a GREAT deal and oil.

The JT8 is a semi syn.

Of course Mobil 1 automotive is a full syn.

I went on a 110 mile ride yesterday and will continue to evaluate the oil temperature of the Mobil 1 15/50.
The temperature here was only 90 degrees give or take 3 degrees depending on time of day. I know the oil temperatures of my bike like the back of my hand but I am used to riding in a bit more heat and a bit more on the interstate. Though it was a good run.
I will post a new thread on this subject in four weeks or so, once I am completely sure of all the stats and facts.

My initial impression of watching the oil temperature yesterday is that there MAY BE some truth to this. But really stupid of me to even comment on this so soon. I could not seem to get the oil temperature to the 247/257 range and only hit the upper 230's again, need some time in some hot weather and a good long run to the beach to test this all out. Its been a cool spring/summer here ...

 

[Bonz]

alarmguy,

I gather you are saying shift quality won't fall off comparing synthetic vs conventional in a Harley engine that is not a shared sump. Because the bike is running a different fluid in the transmission, or the same fluid in a totally different work environment.

In an in-line 4, especially air-cooled, but also liquid-cooled, shift quality falls off with a conventional oil faster than a synthetic oil of the same weight. Been there, done that.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by Bonz
alarmguy,

I gather you are saying shift quality won't fall off comparing synthetic vs conventional in a Harley engine that is not a shared sump. Because the bike is running a different fluid in the transmission, or the same fluid in a totally different work environment.

In an in-line 4, especially air-cooled, but also liquid-cooled, shift quality falls off with a conventional oil faster than a synthetic oil of the same weight. Been there, done that.


I never owned a Harley with a shared sump so will stay out of that debate... *L* I have owned Vtwin metrics with shared sumps and only used conventional oils, changed every 3000 to 3500 miles or so and would notice shift quality going down with a 10/40 but much better with 20/50 (less spread in the viscosity)

In my Road King, shift quality doesn't change no matter the mileage and only use non synthetic in the primary and transmission. Actually Primary OCI is 10,000 miles and transmission 20,000 but I change in half that time because a quart of oil is cheap AND even at that OCI is only every couple years on the transmission and about every year on the primary which I do during a clutch adjustment anyway.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by jm1na
I hadn't seen this before, but the latest Valvoline VR1 conventional PI Sheet has it approved for API CD/CF. Not approved for SAE 60 or synthetic. I think that should cover HD's HDEO requirement. I wouldn't hesitate on using the 60 wt or the synthetic (which I do use).

https://www.valvoline.com/our-products/motor-oil/vr1-racing-oil
Dated 4/7/20. They are also not listing Flash Point any longer. Click "PI Sheet".

Here is synthetic:
https://www.valvoline.com/our-products/motor-oil/vr1-full-synthetic-racing-motor-oil


Ch4+ or higher is the recommendation CF falls far short but at least there is a API "C" unlike most other oils, Mobil 1 15/50 also claims a CF on their website and for the first time ever I am using a full synthetic Mobil 1 15/50 over my favorite go to oil Mystic JT8 semi syn CH4+ and higher. Its an experiment on oil temperatures and Im down to my last gallon or two of JT8 out of the 8 gallons I had, so figured for fun I would try the Mobil and save the JT8 for my boat which is due for a change AND ... I didnt have to wait for a new order of JT8 while I experiment with the Mobil 1. *L*

 

[Bonz]

Agree, 10w40 vs 20w50, 20w50 much less viscosity index improver to span the gap so not as much to shear. Shift quality stays better longer. 5w40 oils are very guilty of this like has been said.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by Bonz
Agree, 10w40 vs 20w50, 20w50 much less viscosity index improver to span the gap so not as much to shear. Shift quality stays better longer. 5w40 oils are very guilty of this like has been said.

Absolutely ^^^ No reason for a 5/40 unless recommended by the manufacturer, it becomes a 5/30 very quickly

 

[Bonz]

With that said, BMW recommends 5w40 every 6,000 miles in my buddy's R1200RT (liquid cooled). I sold him 3 gallons of Rotella T6 I had got on sale, as it lost shift quality in my ZRX the time I used it.

 

[Saltysquid]

Interesting points. Been enjoying the discussion. Went with HD 360 for the moment with formula plus. Shifts nicely did my clutch adjustment, steering head bearing check, belt check. Went well hydraulic lifters are nice to deal with.

I plan on getting a sample of this fill. Gonna run at least 1500 miles. That's when redline suggests the switch. Don't know if anybody noticed but hawgblud had a heck of a deal going for 75 bucks box of 12 on ebay. Dependent on the sample i may switch.

Keep the points going if you feel like it. Much appreciated.

 

[Bonz]

Been interested in Blud lubricants, anyone have info on the additive package or seen a UOA?

I couldn't find much on their website.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by Saltysquid
Interesting points. Been enjoying the discussion. Went with HD 360 for the moment with formula plus. Shifts nicely did my clutch adjustment, steering head bearing check, belt check. Went well hydraulic lifters are nice to deal with.

I plan on getting a sample of this fill. Gonna run at least 1500 miles. That's when redline suggests the switch. Don't know if anybody noticed but hawgblud had a heck of a deal going for 75 bucks box of 12 on ebay. Dependent on the sample i may switch.

Keep the points going if you feel like it. Much appreciated.


Yes, me too, I enjoy civil oils threads *L*
Ive been using the Formula+ in the trans and primary since new in 2014 with now 27,000 miles on the bike, no issues. I do change it out roughly half the required OCI ... transmission around 10,000 miles and primary around 7,000 miles, all depends how much riding I get in a year, 2019 and the winter of 2020 the bike just sat around in the garage. Rainy winter and last summer was the first year in maybe a decade that we didnt get our normal summer ride into the Smoky Mountains of Gatlinburg, Pigeon Forge, Maggie Valley, Pisgah National Forest, Tail of the Dragon, just love it up there, of course any given year any of those areas and more, not all every year.

Last year was a unique year for me, just didnt get out on the bike much, hopefully more this year. Im off to a better start...
Anyway, here is my post/UOAs in BITOG from 2017, it has 5 UOAs on a combination of 2 HD 360 conventional and 3 15/50 Mystic JT8 semi ... Remember the UOAs on the Harley oil were when the bike was brand new and not a reflection on the oil, brand new engines always have higher wear as it breaks on.
The Road King is a big bike/heavy and we do a huge amount of two up, interstate 70+ MPH for hours and normal around town stuff too, in what some might consider "punishing" temperatures of 93 to 103 degrees.
I have been blown away by the reliability of the Road King, never once did not start, never once let us down.
Amazing machine, love it.

Click here for 5 UOAs on HD 360 and Mystik Oil in my Road King

... have fun! //
(ps, I LOVE the hydraulic lifters, one thing I love about the Road King is no valve clearance checks. I used to HATE doing them on my other bikes. The last bike I traded in before it needed to be done and bought the Road King, in the Smoky Mountains while on vacation, in a rain storm no less and rode it home>

 

[Jimiii]

Alarmguy: I am interested in your oil temps.
1- how are you monitoring your oil temps, with a dipstick probe, or via an app, with a tuner?
2- when do you typically see the highest temps?
Hot day 2 up on interstate holding a steady 75-80 mph for 1 1/2-2 hrs, or in
City stop and go heavy rush hour traffic.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by Jimiii
Alarmguy: I am interested in your oil temps.
1- how are you monitoring your oil temps, with a dipstick probe, or via an app, with a tuner?
2- when do you typically see the highest temps?
Hot day 2 up on interstate holding a steady 75-80 mph for 1 1/2-2 hrs, or in
City stop and go heavy rush hour traffic.


Hey Jim,

1. I use the Harley Digital Oil Temperature Dipstick which to me is the most accurate as well, in essence, a temperature sensor is sitting right in your oil pan.

2. (When do I see the highest oil temperatures )
This for me was without question the most fun and interesting thing about knowing oil temperatures, for a number of reasons with results I never expected. I also learned more about the engine when posting my results from some knowledgeable people. Im into instrumentation and how things work and to this day I am always looking at the oil temperatures. Fun reasons and keep in mind we are talking about a 2014 Road King but safe to say this applies to all HD touring bikes and most likely all touring bikes and bikes in general that come with oil coolers.

There are 2 periods of the highest oil temperatures, high speeds on the interstate and dead stopped in traffic for 15 + min at a time in 85 degree heat. We could have all guessed dead stopped in traffic with no engine or oil cooler fan but interstate speeds when air is really blowing by the engine and through the oil cooler REALLY surprised me.
I should point out (another fun project) I did replace the 8 row standard HD oil cooler with a 10 row Jagg oil cooler. I cant really say if it made any difference. Its been years ago now, did it for fun but at the time I dont think it made much difference maybe a few degrees..

What I have learned.

A. = Interstate speeds by far consistantly heat the oil to the upper levels of 245 to 255 degrees. I found that interesting at a time the most amount of air is rushing through the engine and oil cooler.
I learned why. The bottom of the pistons are sprayed with oil to keep them cooled and its at interstate speeds that they run the hottest and oil is really sprayed on the bottom of the pistons at the highest rate.
Now it makes sense to me why up until recently most all bikes with oil coolers from all brands do not have fans. The oil coolers are for high speed running NOT slow speed running. When a HD engine is idling very little oil is sprayed on the pistons and of course with less throttle everything runs cooler at slower speeds.
Literally as soon as I get off the interstate slowing down to normal speeds the oil temperature starts dropping.

B. Slow speed operation. The same can happen at slow to dead stopped in traffic but it takes much longer to get the oil temps up to the highway temps if 245 - 255 but once you do, depending on how stuck you are in traffic, they will keep climbing and at a fast rate, I have seen on my bike a handful of times get to the 267 degree mark in beach traffic, dead stopped moving a little bit at a time. I have since bought a Lenale Engine fan (for fun) I turn it on a handful of times that those conditions happen. The engine fan cools down the engine and of course stabilizes the oil temperature and VERY slowly it will start to drop a degree at a time.
So yeah, I guess "B" would go for city heavy traffic, stop and go, if you never go fast enough for some air to blow through the engine and oil cooler.

Finally - My riding conditions are a bit extreme. In the cooler weather around my state you see motorcycles EVERYWHERE and I mean everywhere but come summer May through Sept ... you see less and less. I happen to enjoy riding in the hot weather. many of those trips are to there beach and mountains though, so the temperatures I ride in will always range with daytime highs of not less then 90 Degrees and most cases 95 to 100.

If you ride in temperatures of 70 to 80 I dont think you will see the temps I mention above on the interstates but may see them stuck in heavy traffic.
Harley Davidson published normal operating oil temperature is listed @ 230 degrees.