Good lubrication and still Hemi's are failing.

[Sunnyinhollister]

Originally Posted by dnewton3

Originally Posted by GumbyJarvis

... Police Cruisers are another example of a severe service issue. Any vehicle idling for 12+ hour shifts on the side of the road is going to have its issues. 9/10 it's due to neglect, whether it be due to not adhering to severe service schedules, or driving erratically for no reason other than to look cool.

I respectfully disagree. After spending 24+ years sitting in GMs, Fords and Chrysler products, I've seen plenty of LEO service in these vehicles. When I started in 1995, the GM Caprice LT1/LT4 engines were fairly stout; never any really big issues with the engines themselves. The Ford CVPIs were like granite; you could not break the drive-train; the 4.6L is a stalwart and there's a reason you see these in taxi service AFTER they'er taken out of police service (can easily run 300k-500k with routine service). The Chargers and Durango's we've had in the last few years? Not up to snuff; not in the least. In 20 years of sitting in CVPIs, I had only one failure ever; a IAC motor/solenoid went out. Easily replace roadside in 10 minutes; the CoHwy shop foreman drove out to me on a Sunday and replaced it in the field. Other than that, those CVPI cars were the most reliable we ever had. We had a short spat of failed COP ignition failures; coincidentally right after our new leader told us to include pressure washing under-hood as part of our cleaning prep for the monthly vehicle inspection program. After we stopped pressure washing the engines, the COP failures stopped. COPs don't like high-pressure water sprayed at them. I've been in a Charger during an emergency run; the cam up and ate itself and I had to limp it all the way there. We've lost a lot of cams in our Chargers; we're a mid-sized agency. Our Durangos eat up the 8-spd trannies fairly quickly. We've had water pumps fail way too soon. We've had two officers now locked out of their cars because the body-control computers refused to recognize the key fobs upon approach; not a good thing when you're trying to get to an emergency call! Our agency sees good routine service for it's vehicles with bulk drum oil and jobber filters. The 4.6L engines never had internal lube-related issues in the 20 years we drove them. They got OFCIs every 5k miles or so; no more than 6k miles. Your comment that "Any vehicle idling for 12+ hour shifts on the side of the road is going to have its issues" is patently incorrect; the 4.6L engines never presented issues related to it's severe use or service factor. The old GM LT1/LT4 engines never had issues either. We've had 6.0L GMs in some Tahoe's; no issues there. Even our Taurus 3.5L engines (n/a; not EB) don't have severe service issues. It's just the Hemi's; they cannot handle the severe duty, even with decent routine service. The above is all true and factual, if not anecdotal. However, what I'm going to say next is my OPINION ... The Chrysler products are like the hot blonde chick in high-school. They're fast, good looking, and a hoot to run around with for a while. But eventually, sooner rather than later, she's going to become high-maintenance and not someone you'd want to spend a lot of time with. She'll cost you a lot of money and leave you stranded when you can least afford it. Yes - that's a stereotypical POV that is derogatory. But the real question is this .... Did I offend the blondes, or the Chargers, more?

Thanks for the insight. It's a shame Chrysler has not stepped up to the plate on this. I guess they just like the profit from the out of warranty work?? Who knows. My next oil change will probably be with a 5W30 and I still have some MOS2 left on the shelf.

 

[Greg L]

Watching this thread & most interested. I don't really follow RAM forums, but my take away on the 5.7 Hemi (mine is a 2011 with MDS) is that I will keep it in 'tow mode' around town...in order to temporarily disable the MDS. Currently have 158k miles on the engine and no issues. Will most likely start using 5w30 in summer with occasional small doses of zinc additive. My county doesn't care about smog/catalytic. Only time I plan on using MDS (in eco-mode) will be on long highway trips, if that makes it sound more logical (?). GL

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted by DoubleWasp

I am in no way saying it's a needle bearing problem in general. Might be one of improperly spec'd or treated bearings. Or maybe they need to be of substantial quality in the first place when used in a valve train. I'm just saying it does happen. Companies like Jesel seem to be able to make needle bearings that can survive nuclear war.

The Hemi cam lobe failure rates seems to be accelerating now that the '09/'10/'11 models are getting over 100,000 miles. I posted some pics of a failure @ 3 months ago.......I've done 7 cam/lifter replacements since!!! All being 5.7L VVT/MDS using SADI cam cores. I'm about convinced this failure begins as Spalling of the Camshaft Lobe Surface from surface fatigue caused by inadequate work surface hardening. Other lobes show small amounts of Spalling but haven't entered failure mode yet.....The roller axle bearings show no signs of failure on those lobes. As everyone of these lobes/lifters that do fail completely tend to be driven for hundreds if not thousands of miles while the owner either ignores the tick, Or Sticks his head in the sand thinking boutique will fix a mechanical issue. Then when a full blown misfire materializes.....They install Coils, Spark Plugs, Injectors. It's hard if not impossible to make a accurate analysis of the failure when all the needles fall out after being subjected to so much cast iron debris contamination then ran through a spinning crankshaft on their way to the oil pan. Overkill made a very compelling case for loss of valve control because of weak valve springs.....Launching the lifter off the cam lobe....Then crashing back down on the lobe. Which in my opinion could cause surface fatigue of the cam lobe surface, Especially on a SADI cam core. Recently I diagnosed a interesting roller lifter failure......2013 Chevy Silverado 4.8L with VVT. It had a loud Squeak that was very close in interval to a lifter/rocker arm tick (Camshaft Speed) No misfires or other secondary indicators! A Roller on one of the Lifters had spalled, Caused a flat spot in the roller, & was sliding across the cam lobe.....I tore the lifter apart & found no issues with the axle needle bearings! This issue was caught early enough that the camshaft which is 5150 billet steel just needed a polish of that lobe & was put back into service with 16 new LS7 lifters.....Pictures.

 

[Kruse]

Originally Posted by dnewton3

. The Ford CVPIs were like granite;

My niece was a state trooper for many years. (She now teaches class for incoming state troopers, so she's no longer in a vehicle all day) She drove the Crown Vic for many years and told me they were extremely reliable. After the Crown Vic became passé, they started to purchase Chargers. My niece was actually one of the last troopers to get issued a Crown Vic and she wanted so bad to get a Charger. (Because the Crown Vic was a grandma's car is what she said) Law enforcement soon found out that the Chargers were in the shop far more than the Crown Vics, even though the Chargers did have a higher top end. I reported the same thing years ago on this site and was chastised by the Mopar fans back then.

 

[Exhaustgases]

Its all very funny stuff, well unless you own something that it happens to. I just find it so strange that things made now, just don't last like they did in the old days. I first question the country of origin of the failed parts. And then next the modern computer aged engineering. This is all stuff that was worked out and proven 50 plus years ago.

 

[IndyFan]

Originally Posted by Exhaustgases

Its all very funny stuff, well unless you own something that it happens to. I just find it so strange that things made now, just don't last like they did in the old days. I first question the country of origin of the failed parts. And then next the modern computer aged engineering. This is all stuff that was worked out and proven 50 plus years ago.

Really? There's a thread going strong right now about how the average car in the US is a record 11.8 years old. I'm not sure how that jibes with the old "they don't make 'em like they used to" thing.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by IndyFan

Originally Posted by Exhaustgases

Its all very funny stuff, well unless you own something that it happens to. I just find it so strange that things made now, just don't last like they did in the old days. I first question the country of origin of the failed parts. And then next the modern computer aged engineering. This is all stuff that was worked out and proven 50 plus years ago.

Really? There's a thread going strong right now about how the average car in the US is a record 11.8 years old. I'm not sure how that jibes with the old "they don't make 'em like they used to" thing.

Exactly. Cars used to be worn out and tired by 100k, now most will hit that and keep going.

 

[slo town]

Originally Posted by Kruse

Originally Posted by dnewton3

. The Ford CVPIs were like granite;

My niece was a state trooper for many years. (She now teaches class for incoming state troopers, so she's no longer in a vehicle all day) She drove the Crown Vic for many years and told me they were extremely reliable. After the Crown Vic became passé, they started to purchase Chargers. My niece was actually one of the last troopers to get issued a Crown Vic and she wanted so bad to get a Charger. (Because the Crown Vic was a grandma's car is what she said) Law enforcement soon found out that the Chargers were in the shop far more than the Crown Vics, even though the Chargers did have a higher top end. I reported the same thing years ago on this site and was chastised by the Mopar fans back then.

My oldest son is a police officer. He has told me the exact same thing - the Crown Vics were indestructible and EVERY SINGLE ONE of the department's Chargers had horrible valve train tick and clatter, even the low mileage ones. Scott

 

[ted s]

do one qualified to have such an opinion would post on you tube

 

[Exhaustgases]

If you look around at the various automotive sites, you will see there are a lot of cars/ engines dying at under 100k miles, due to things like this thread is about as well as inferior materials being used or just plain bad design. And even like the large over the road trucks now that are having many problems, all or most of it goes back to the wonderful regulations and requirements that remove / take away something that helped the longevity of these parts or require something that was never used in the past. So sure the cars can last and some don't, that is why there are recalls that is if your lucky , usually the consumer has to eat it. Study the CVT issue some may last and many don't that is why one outfit had to increase their warranty to 10 years. So see that helps that 11 year deal.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by SLO_Town

My oldest son is a police officer. He has told me the exact same thing - the Crown Vics were indestructible and EVERY SINGLE ONE of the department's Chargers had horrible valve train tick and clatter, even the low mileage ones.

Almost every Crown Vic that retired from police service (without being a loss) had another longer career as a taxi afterwards. Now, I know the taxi industry has changed, but I can't say I've seen a single Charger in taxi service in this city.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted by Exhaustgases

If you look around at the various automotive sites, you will see there are a lot of cars/ engines dying at under 100k miles, due to things like this thread is about as well as inferior materials being used or just plain bad design. And even like the large over the road trucks now that are having many problems, all or most of it goes back to the wonderful regulations and requirements that remove / take away something that helped the longevity of these parts or require something that was never used in the past. So sure the cars can last and some don't, that is why there are recalls that is if your lucky , usually the consumer has to eat it. Study the CVT issue some may last and many don't that is why one outfit had to increase their warranty to 10 years. So see that helps that 11 year deal.

It's not that we can't build things to last, it's that greed and profit win over build quality. It's no longer about building the best quality product, but building the best quality product within a certain price point in mind. Things are not overbuilt anymore, but rather built "good enough".

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Originally Posted by Garak

Originally Posted by SLO_Town

My oldest son is a police officer. He has told me the exact same thing - the Crown Vics were indestructible and EVERY SINGLE ONE of the department's Chargers had horrible valve train tick and clatter, even the low mileage ones.

Almost every Crown Vic that retired from police service (without being a loss) had another longer career as a taxi afterwards. Now, I know the taxi industry has changed, but I can't say I've seen a single Charger in taxi service in this city.

That's because taxi services are getting away from those type of vehicles. Concerning still using Crown Vics that are still standing, I would use them too, if I had 20 years of parts still inside my garages. For many saving tips, I would buy alll the Crown Vics I could. Minivans, Hybrids.....etc.... are what's in right now with cabs. Ford Explorers are #1 these days with the Police. If GM put rear-wheel drive in their new Blazers, they might give Ford some competition on upcoming municipal contracts soon. The one I saw yesterday was fitting for a future police vehicle. Just wasn't sure if it was rear-wheel drive from a distance. Most Police still prefer the rear-wheel vehicles with 4WD and good ground clearance..

 

[Slick17601]

I run Pennzoil Ultra 5W-20 in my Hemi Ram and sleep well. If it breaks, I'll fix it.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en

That's because taxi services are getting away from those type of vehicles. Concerning still using Crown Vics that are still standing, I would use them too, if I had 20 years of parts still inside my garages. For many saving tips, I would buy alll the Crown Vics I could. Minivans, Hybrids.....etc.... are what's in right now with cabs. Ford Explorers are #1 these days with the Police.

taxis are dying a slow death - and Uber/Lyft forbid the Crown Vic as a car, they're worried ex-cop cars and salvaged cabs will make their way to the platform. The Prius is king with cabbies and Uber drivers, but you're [censored] yourself over for driving for Uber and Lyft. Might as well make the pain a bit more bearable with the Prius. The CHP has ordered quite a few Dodge Chargers, but rumor from a CHP officer I talked to marshalling a half-marathon said Sacramento is going back to the Explorer. Some cities around here are still using the Crown Vic, CHP stockpiled a few 2011s and some bought the last Caprice/Commodores before GM shut down the Holden plant.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en

Minivans, Hybrids.....etc.... are what's in right now with cabs.

Here, it's mostly hybrids and a few Corollas and their ilk, and a few leftover Impalas. The hybrids incur less fuel expense even now with today's gas prices than the full sized vehicles did back in the 1980s. It's pretty amazing. My brother, when he last drove cab, was getting gas bills I wish I would have had in 1990. We used to have a fair number of minivan taxis, but they are beginning to disappear. There were a few SUV taxis, Suburbans of all things, at the time, when there was a bit of a demand for really high capacity vehicles. That's been a long time, ago, though, and I only saw a couple examples.

 

[mbacfp]

Originally Posted by nthach

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en

That's because taxi services are getting away from those type of vehicles. Concerning still using Crown Vics that are still standing, I would use them too, if I had 20 years of parts still inside my garages. For many saving tips, I would buy alll the Crown Vics I could. Minivans, Hybrids.....etc.... are what's in right now with cabs. Ford Explorers are #1 these days with the Police.

taxis are dying a slow death - and Uber/Lyft forbid the Crown Vic as a car, they're worried ex-cop cars and salvaged cabs will make their way to the platform. The Prius is king with cabbies and Uber drivers, but you're [censored] yourself over for driving for Uber and Lyft. Might as well make the pain a bit more bearable with the Prius. The CHP has ordered quite a few Dodge Chargers, but rumor from a CHP officer I talked to marshalling a half-marathon said Sacramento is going back to the Explorer. Some cities around here are still using the Crown Vic, CHP stockpiled a few 2011s and some bought the last Caprice/Commodores before GM shut down the Holden plant.

Interesting info. The California CHP officer I spoke with said they are using more Chargers...something about new weight requirements forcing them away from SUVs...didn't ask if California law or something else.

 

[NavyVet88]

Originally Posted by GumbyJarvis

Plenty of people run 5w20 in 5.7L engines without failures or ticks. Long idles and people running these things like they're Dom Toretto are the main reason why theres such a high failure rate. I understand that sports cars such as the Charger or Challenger are meant to scream and go fast, but not everytime you drive the dang thing, especially in city traffic. You know how many times I see someone go from light to light flooring a challenger? By the time they get to 60mph its already time to stop at the next red light. Police Cruisers are another example of a severe service issue. Any vehicle idling for 12+ hour shifts on the side of the road is going to have its issues. It's all how you take care of it, I've seen fleet 2009+ Ram Hemis that get a QSGB 5w20 dump and Hastings filters every 5k go to 300k+ without an issue. I've also seen 2009+ 300s and Chargers not make it to 100k. 9/10 it's due to neglect, whether it be due to not adhering to severe service schedules, or driving erratically for no reason other than to look cool. Some of the most popular vehicles with military service members are Chargers, Challengers, Rams, and 300s. Being in the service I wasnt surprised when someones Hemi failed, because most of the time the person was an immature Speedy Gonzalez driving on post where the speed limits what, 35mph tops? They would literally rev the engine up as fast as they could to...35mph...just to stop 3 blocks down at another stoplight/sign. Edit: people are also fooled by OLMs and never even crack open their OM, the oil fill is recommended to be changed every 6months unless the OLM gets to 0 before hand. I'm almost two months in on this OCI, about 2.5K miles in, and the OLM is only at 90%. If the OLM keeps up at this rate, I could go 25,000mi/20 months on a cheap dino (Formula Shell), but I'm smart enough not to, whereas many people probably wouldnt be and then would wonder what happened when they're stranded.

Yes yes and yes. If you take care of it, it will take care of you. Period. When I was still active in the navy, I would meet people on post who could tell you everything you wanted to know about any brand of fast car....top speed, gear ratio, torque variables, horsepower you name it, they knew it. And they also couldn't tell you what oil was in their sump because express oil change right outside of base did the job. I'm not sayin people care about the wrong things, but a lot of people don't seem to pay attention to the right things. You are spot on about military vehicle purchases too. Challengers, Chargers, 300s and mustangs as well. Any quarter mile straight on base where base police isn't at the moment.....fair game. Those vehicles would end up on the lemon lot on base a few months later too.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted by Garak

Originally Posted by SLO_Town

My oldest son is a police officer. He has told me the exact same thing - the Crown Vics were indestructible and EVERY SINGLE ONE of the department's Chargers had horrible valve train tick and clatter, even the low mileage ones.

Almost every Crown Vic that retired from police service (without being a loss) had another longer career as a taxi afterwards. Now, I know the taxi industry has changed, but I can't say I've seen a single Charger in taxi service in this city.

This I don't understand … Crown Vic's were our company cars for many years … we drove them, changed M1 at 5k … trans and gear oil once at 50k … and the only time you did other was to get a new one at 100k when they had trade value … but nothing broke … we beat on them ... rough gravel roads … long idles (sound familiar) … lived in those cars … And no doubt they had a great after life when we traded them. Similar results for LEO, taxi, and the Limo in the Lincoln format (miss pickups at the airport). What replaced them ?

 

[Garak]

There are a fair number of the Prius platform here, and I do see a lot of Corollas and similar. I am guessing Alberta hung onto the Crown Vics, Grand Marquis, and Town Cars a little longer in the taxi industry, since Alberta has an absolute glut of those vehicles all for sale with over 500,000 kilometres each. There are a couple guys still running minivans here that I can think of, but they're not as common as they used to be.