Crystal Clear
Ford V10motor locked up
- Thread starter Cathy Covington
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I'm not sure why I am chiming in but what the heck... For you folks that are siding against Ford, If the dealer would have just said. "You are not covered due to the fact that you freely admit going well beyond the OCI recommended" Would that make things different? It sounds like you are simply hanging the blame on Ford because a lame service writer stuck his foot in his mouth and said "it was oil related". If they would have just said " We'll have to investigate, Will that be cash or charge?" things might have came out differently. Just my .02
If I was Ford:
The warrenty agreement was violated by the customer allowing the oil to be in use more than double what the recommendation by Ford is. There is enough evidence to make the assumption that the customer had neglected oil changes in the past also. The customer had practiced extended OCI's without the use of any oil analysis to know that she could more than double the recommendation made by Ford. While the UOA for this oil was okay, how long did the previous OCI's go? Could previous extended OCI's have caused most of the damage?
As a retailer in this case(regardless of whether it is Ford, GM, Chysler, Nissan, etc..), I would make the customer prove that their actions didn't cause the damage to the engine.
In this case, I am very surprised that the dealership picked up 82% of the cost. I think cathy should be extemely happy about this and not complain about the 18% that she had to pay. I would also hope that she has learned her lesson (the easy way) and gets her oil changed on time.
The warrenty agreement was violated by the customer allowing the oil to be in use more than double what the recommendation by Ford is. There is enough evidence to make the assumption that the customer had neglected oil changes in the past also. The customer had practiced extended OCI's without the use of any oil analysis to know that she could more than double the recommendation made by Ford. While the UOA for this oil was okay, how long did the previous OCI's go? Could previous extended OCI's have caused most of the damage?
As a retailer in this case(regardless of whether it is Ford, GM, Chysler, Nissan, etc..), I would make the customer prove that their actions didn't cause the damage to the engine.
In this case, I am very surprised that the dealership picked up 82% of the cost. I think cathy should be extemely happy about this and not complain about the 18% that she had to pay. I would also hope that she has learned her lesson (the easy way) and gets her oil changed on time.
Let's make this simple, mmmmmmmmmmmkay. If every consumer did what Cathy did, our economy would be screwed. If everyone knew that they could just get away with not maintaining products they buy because they know they can wiggle their way out of liability, then who in their right mind would sell anyone a product?
Cathy made out like a freakin BANDIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ding Ding Ding Ding
I think this whole **** subject should be purged from this NG. Good people do bad things to their vehicles. Poor maintaience should not be rewarded by manufactures giving out new engines/transmissions etc. One lucky family I think.
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We don't know really what the dealer picked up in absolute costs. There are frequently unannounced warranties extended for some components that fail with enough frenquency that they are determined to have manufacturing defects yet fall beyond the warranty period. This may also be in the form of incidents of failure occuring within the normal warranty time frame.
That is, for all we know xxx number of V10 installed in motorhomes failed even with prescribed maintenance. The apparent generosity of the dealer could just be Ford's way of honoring this unannounced defect without precedence setting liability. The dealer may have encountered this situation before ..or be aware that "V10's installed between xxx/0x and xx/0x have had a 45% failure rate due to yadayada. This may have been one of those engines. Ford agrees to give the engine free to the dealer ..the dealer then only needs to recoup his labor ($2000 is quite a bit of labor).
A former girlfriend of mine who has a 96 Cummins had her NV4500 fail @ 50,000 miles (it failed in 2004). Since she had followed all the recommended services at the dealer..DC picked up the tab for the reman trans. She only paid the labor. This was probably a unannounced warranty extended to DC from New Venture for a series of failures that showed up in the field beyond the normal warranty period. This was easier since there was no other cause to attribute it to.
Heck, my Maytag Neptune had so many failures (motor controll board, motor, water level controler, etc.) that Maytag has refunded all my "out of warranty service" fees that occured after the warranty expired.
You just can't say .."Oh ..btw..while you were gone ..your cat died". There's more to it than that.
That is, for all we know xxx number of V10 installed in motorhomes failed even with prescribed maintenance. The apparent generosity of the dealer could just be Ford's way of honoring this unannounced defect without precedence setting liability. The dealer may have encountered this situation before ..or be aware that "V10's installed between xxx/0x and xx/0x have had a 45% failure rate due to yadayada. This may have been one of those engines. Ford agrees to give the engine free to the dealer ..the dealer then only needs to recoup his labor ($2000 is quite a bit of labor).
A former girlfriend of mine who has a 96 Cummins had her NV4500 fail @ 50,000 miles (it failed in 2004). Since she had followed all the recommended services at the dealer..DC picked up the tab for the reman trans. She only paid the labor. This was probably a unannounced warranty extended to DC from New Venture for a series of failures that showed up in the field beyond the normal warranty period. This was easier since there was no other cause to attribute it to.
Heck, my Maytag Neptune had so many failures (motor controll board, motor, water level controler, etc.) that Maytag has refunded all my "out of warranty service" fees that occured after the warranty expired.
You just can't say .."Oh ..btw..while you were gone ..your cat died". There's more to it than that.
9 pages, 347 posts (now 348) is a bit excessive for a single subject, especially after it has been resolved 1-2 months ago. Especially since this is not an "only" vehicle, but a recreation vehicle that is a luxury that most of us members cannot afford. I have a little trouble being sympathetic with someone who can afford such luxuries, as opposed to a hard working person with a problem such as this on an "only" vehicle. Hopefully, the moderators will step in and stop or freeze this thread. I dont want to offend, but enough is enough, lets go to the next problem.
Gary hit the nail on the head.
Burden of proof falls on the manufacturer since they are denying the claim based on oil. You can't offer a warranty and take it away unless you have proof that negligence occured. There is no proof! Several oil changes in 20,000 miles is not neglect! A motor should not fail in under 30000 unless there is a defect or severe neglect. Remember no check engine lights came on, no oil lights, etc.. NO WARNING LIGHTS should tell you something. We are also talking over a 10 quart sump!
Some of you that want to side with the manufacturer for whatever reason need to put yourself in this position once! I gaurantee if you were denied a warranty claim based on hersay you would have a different outlook. Especially if it involves several thousand dollars.
I agree keep it easy and do scheduled OCI at manufacturers recommendations. Keep careful records.
Burden of proof falls on the manufacturer since they are denying the claim based on oil. You can't offer a warranty and take it away unless you have proof that negligence occured. There is no proof! Several oil changes in 20,000 miles is not neglect! A motor should not fail in under 30000 unless there is a defect or severe neglect. Remember no check engine lights came on, no oil lights, etc.. NO WARNING LIGHTS should tell you something. We are also talking over a 10 quart sump!
Some of you that want to side with the manufacturer for whatever reason need to put yourself in this position once! I gaurantee if you were denied a warranty claim based on hersay you would have a different outlook. Especially if it involves several thousand dollars.
I agree keep it easy and do scheduled OCI at manufacturers recommendations. Keep careful records.
Amkeer,
I agree the burdon was on the manufacture. The only reason it was is because of the way the service writer responded. If he would have kept his mouth shut and stated warranty was being denied because the owner neglected to change oil per reccomended OCI, ford would have stood a better chance of winning in court. Comes down to symantics. A low level Ford employee blew it by claiming an oil related problem. Ford didn't need to say anything at all other than it was out of warranty due to OCI. I mean really, how hard is it to change your oil on time. And if you dont have time, there are places that are very resonable and even guys who come to you if thats easier. Not much sympathy here.....I guess my wife was right last time she called me a hard ***
I agree the burdon was on the manufacture. The only reason it was is because of the way the service writer responded. If he would have kept his mouth shut and stated warranty was being denied because the owner neglected to change oil per reccomended OCI, ford would have stood a better chance of winning in court. Comes down to symantics. A low level Ford employee blew it by claiming an oil related problem. Ford didn't need to say anything at all other than it was out of warranty due to OCI. I mean really, how hard is it to change your oil on time. And if you dont have time, there are places that are very resonable and even guys who come to you if thats easier. Not much sympathy here.....I guess my wife was right last time she called me a hard ***
Frank,
Ford didn't open its mouth the dealership did. The law clearly states what is required and thats what I posted. If they can't prove that the oil caused failure then they have NO LEG TO STAND ON! The uoa proves the customer didn't neglect. What else can I say? I went through a more difficult case than this and I can tell you that you have to prove WITHOUT DOUBT. This burden falls on the manufacturer since they are WARRANTOR and denying the claim.
In any event I agree to keep good maintenance practices is important for situations such as this.
I keep careful records of everything I do to my vehicles. I log mileage, dates and keep reciepts on everything. Even when the vehicles are polished.
Ford didn't open its mouth the dealership did. The law clearly states what is required and thats what I posted. If they can't prove that the oil caused failure then they have NO LEG TO STAND ON! The uoa proves the customer didn't neglect. What else can I say? I went through a more difficult case than this and I can tell you that you have to prove WITHOUT DOUBT. This burden falls on the manufacturer since they are WARRANTOR and denying the claim.
In any event I agree to keep good maintenance practices is important for situations such as this.
I keep careful records of everything I do to my vehicles. I log mileage, dates and keep reciepts on everything. Even when the vehicles are polished.
So this crap goes on and on and on.
Amkeer,
I am not an authority on the law regarding this, thats for sure. But isn't there anything written into the warranty that makes it void if the other party doesn't do x, y, and z? I'm not arguing what the real problem was. I was arguing why the burden was on Ford when the other party didn't live up to their end of the deal. I'm sure the law varies from state to state. At the worst, this thread was a good wake up call for all who read it.
Take care Amkeer....I really not a bad guy...Ask Gary
I am not an authority on the law regarding this, thats for sure. But isn't there anything written into the warranty that makes it void if the other party doesn't do x, y, and z? I'm not arguing what the real problem was. I was arguing why the burden was on Ford when the other party didn't live up to their end of the deal. I'm sure the law varies from state to state. At the worst, this thread was a good wake up call for all who read it.
Take care Amkeer....I really not a bad guy...Ask Gary
My truck needed a head a month ago. The extended warranty company asked for my oil change receipts. I promptly gave them every single one that showed I changed my oil every 3,000 miles. Why? Because the manual and warranty said I needed to do so.
Do I think I need to change my oil that often? NO. I did because I did not want to expire my warranty. Now that the warranty is almost up I installed my bypass filters and will do things the way I want.
In 6 months my warranty will be used up so I don't care and neither will the dealership. Follow the rules that are set for a warranty and you won't have a problem. It's printed in black and white.
If you want to do extended drains with a warranty go to wally world buy some cases of cheap-o oil and a bunch of ST filters keep the receipt. This may not be the most honest thing to do but If you ever need to use them for proof that you changed your own oil you'll have it. No I didn't use this method for my warranty.
I would assume cars are a hobby for everyone that reads a website like this. Most of us here know that you can run longer than the manufacturer recommends for oil changes. Why take the Chance cover your but. It's not that complicated play by the rules and don't cry foul when you don't keep up your end of the bargain. I've been reading this thread for months and finally input my 2 Cents. I also believe the Covington's got off very lucky. I wouldn't complain if I was in their boat the way things turned out.
If I sold you something and said for it to be under warranty you need to change the oil X amount of times and you admitted you didn't. I'm sorry I would try to cut you a better deal on repairs but not much more than that.
For those wondering it was a 99 ram sport w/60,000 rounds. The head was replaced for 1 bad valve guide. The oil used was valvoline durablend with occasional Lucas UCL say every 3,000 miles also. No UOA's were performed.
I am currently running mobile one 10w-30 with a frantz bypass filter.
[ February 22, 2005, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: iceberg ]
Do I think I need to change my oil that often? NO. I did because I did not want to expire my warranty. Now that the warranty is almost up I installed my bypass filters and will do things the way I want.
In 6 months my warranty will be used up so I don't care and neither will the dealership. Follow the rules that are set for a warranty and you won't have a problem. It's printed in black and white.
If you want to do extended drains with a warranty go to wally world buy some cases of cheap-o oil and a bunch of ST filters keep the receipt. This may not be the most honest thing to do but If you ever need to use them for proof that you changed your own oil you'll have it. No I didn't use this method for my warranty.
I would assume cars are a hobby for everyone that reads a website like this. Most of us here know that you can run longer than the manufacturer recommends for oil changes. Why take the Chance cover your but. It's not that complicated play by the rules and don't cry foul when you don't keep up your end of the bargain. I've been reading this thread for months and finally input my 2 Cents. I also believe the Covington's got off very lucky. I wouldn't complain if I was in their boat the way things turned out.
If I sold you something and said for it to be under warranty you need to change the oil X amount of times and you admitted you didn't. I'm sorry I would try to cut you a better deal on repairs but not much more than that.
I am currently running mobile one 10w-30 with a frantz bypass filter.
[ February 22, 2005, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: iceberg ]
One thing to remember is its a RECOMMENDED interval as a guide for good maintenance practices and one the manufacturer feels will give the longest service. You can't deny a warranty based on going 1 mile over a oci. Can you deny it 10 or 15 miles over? What about if you don't bring the vehicle in to the dealer for the 12000 mile checkup to check fluids, tighten bolts, check air filter, top off windshield wiper, etc. is that an automatic out for the manufacturer? No! You have to be able to base your claim on negligence and the neglect caused failure.
You can't use an oil claim failure unless you are 100% sure the oil had failed. If the UOA came back with the oil shot then I would side with the manufacturer.
I agree with others that you need to follow critical maintenance plans to avoid what has happened here. I do!
Hopefully some have learned a thing or two in this thread. Its been a very enlightening thread.
You can't use an oil claim failure unless you are 100% sure the oil had failed. If the UOA came back with the oil shot then I would side with the manufacturer.
I agree with others that you need to follow critical maintenance plans to avoid what has happened here. I do!
Hopefully some have learned a thing or two in this thread. Its been a very enlightening thread.
On and on, lets go for 1000 posts....
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Well, read it. There's more in there to say the warranty is void for things that the other party doesdo (abuse, commerical use (taxi/limo), etc.).
If the warranty was void by just missing an oil change ...then it would state so. They don't.
I could see it now, "Mr. Allan, you missed one oil change ...now you've got to pay for your cracked head. Sure the cracked head has nothing to do with your oil and yes, we've replaced many on other cars since it was really a cooling system problem ..but you just screwed up and we're hammering you for it. Too bad ..sucks to be you."
I don't see the difficulty in seeing this when you put it far enough out there to the point of extreme. It shouldn't take too much narrowing of that to see the concept here.
In my example ..the head having nothing to do with the oil made it easy to see. Now make that event a set of bearings that failed and you should still be able to see that they too can have nothing to do with the oil not being changed. The only thing you have to base it on is a close relationship between oil and bearings ...you don't KNOW the oil was deliquent in its intended purpose ..you assume that it was. You could just as easily assume that the bearings were faulty and that the oil had no contributing factor to their failure.
[ February 22, 2005, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
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