Ester vs PAO - GDI and emissions considerations

[2019StingrayZ51]

Hi all, another question from a newbie here. My Corvette calls for the new Dexos 2 certified Mobil 1 0W-40 ESP. As I understand it, Dexos 2 is a low-SAPS formulation which is meant to protect emissions systems, hence the "ESP" in the name of this particular one. I also understand this formulation is meant to be better for GDI engines as it should result in less build-up on the valves when vapors come back through the PCV system. So as I'm looking at alternatives to the M1 0W-40 (nothing against it at all, I've always been a big fan of M1) for maximum protection of the engine (as opposed to the catalysts), I keep coming back to Redline 5W-40. Thanks to all on here who have recommended it. It's not Dexos 2 nor a low-SAPS. But it has a very low NOACK of 6. Seems to me that with such a low evaporative loss, it shouldn't be sending much vapor (with the offending SAPS) back through the PCV system. Secondly, from all I've read, ester base oils are the "best" at protecting and keeping the engine clean, so how would you balance this vs. the need for low-SAPS. Thanks in advance for knowledge and insights!

 

[RDY4WAR]

The detergent package is more important than the base oil when it comes to GDI. You need an oil low in calcium detergent to prevent low-speed preignition (LSPI).

Red Line contains around 3,000 ppm of calcium which is double the limit for GDI / D1G2.

If you want a PAO / POE base oil like Red Line with the proper DI package for GDI, have a look at Driven DI30 or DI40.

If you'd like to stick with M1, you could use M1 ESP 5w30 which actually has a slightly higher HTHS than the 0w-40 and most likely a lower NOACK.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

NOAK of M1 0w40 ESP is around 8.5 so you're not gaining much of anything by considering Redline. Also when it comes to valve deposits and GDI, the add pack plays a big role in deposit formation. "Old School" add packs are worse for it. One can argue that the add pack used in Mid-Low SAPS oils is significantly more advanced than that used in High-SAPs oils. Fortunately for the most part the deposit issue has become a non-issue due to oil formulations and engine design.

Esters as a whole are not a panacea because some versions compete with the anti-wear additives when it comes to attaching to metal surfaces. This is where the "cleaning ability" comes from and it's not necessarily a good thing when considering a 10k mile OCI.. It was posted around here that the esters used by M1 do not compete with AW additives.

 

[2019StingrayZ51]

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
The detergent package is more important than the base oil when it comes to GDI. You need an oil low in calcium detergent to prevent low-speed preignition (LSPI).

Red Line contains around 3,000 ppm of calcium which is double the limit for GDI / D1G2.

If you want a PAO / POE base oil like Red Line with the proper DI package for GDI, have a look at Driven DI30 or DI40.

If you'd like to stick with M1, you could use M1 ESP 5w30 which actually has a slightly higher HTHS than the 0w-40 and most likely a lower NOACK.


Thanks RDY4WAR, this is exactly why I ask questions. I wasn't thinking about calcium or LSPI....

 

[2019StingrayZ51]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
NOAK of M1 0w40 ESP is around 8.5 so you're not gaining much of anything by considering Redline. Also when it comes to valve deposits and GDI, the add pack plays a big role in deposit formation. "Old School" add packs are worse for it. One can argue that the add pack used in Mid-Low SAPS oils is significantly more advanced than that used in High-SAPs oils. Fortunately for the most part the deposit issue has become a non-issue due to oil formulations and engine design.

Esters as a whole are not a panacea because some versions compete with the anti-wear additives when it comes to attaching to metal surfaces. This is where the "cleaning ability" comes from and it's not necessarily a good thing when considering a 10k mile OCI.. It was posted around here that the esters used by M1 do not compete with AW additives.


Thanks BMWTurbo, this is very helpful information. I should probably stick with the M1. Could use their 15W-50 if I go to the track on a hot summer day.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Originally Posted by 2019StingrayZ51
Seems to me that with such a low evaporative loss, it shouldn't be sending much vapor (with the offending SAPS) back through the PCV system.


There was a white paper posted on the board a couple months ago (interesting articles subforum I believe) that thoroughly investigated the PCV vapors, and they determined that a very low portion of PCV gasses are the result of NOACK loss vapors. A majority of it is from the thrashing of the rotating assembly and subsequent airborne (in the crankcase of course) oil mist inside the engine, which is then sucked into the PCV system through the VC breathers.

To me, it seemed that things like crank scrapers and windage pans would help out with reducing the PCV vapors, since it helps to separate the oil from the rotating assembly, and also help capture some of the mist in the crankcase and re-condense it on the screen to return it to liquid form vs. mist.

One would think that one of the oil-shedding ceramic coatings on the stems and back side of the intake valves would do two things: one, help shed any incoming oil mist to help prevent buildup; and two, help cool the valves since the oil would then be more of a heat transfer method since the mist would hit the valve, absorb some heat, and then be whisked off the valve on the next incoming air charge. I don't know that this has been investigated yet.

 

[oil_film_movies]

The only way I can possibly see improving on M1 ESP 0w40, to get a small anti-wear benefit and possibly less piston deposits, is to use an oil rated dexos2, Mercedes 229.51, Porsche A40, BMW LL-04, and VW 502, combined, with a slightly higher HTHS. That M1 is HTHS 3.5, so going to HTHS 4.0 would be the most I'd go up. An all-PAO+Ester oil that does that is Ravenol RUP 5w-40, with NOACK 6.0, moly & tungsten FM, and HTHS 3.9.
You don't need the "0w" part of M1 ESP 0w40 in NC, warm enough there. The enormous number of engine tests done on the Ravenol RUP 5w-40 leaves no doubt it's a great oil. The 100% PAO-Ester base oil and interesting FMs are a bonus.
blauparts.com or amazon.com might have it.
https://www.ravenol.de/en/products/usage/d/Product/show/p/ravenol-rup-sae-5w-40.html

 

[Patman]

Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
The only way I can possibly see improving on M1 ESP 0w40, to get a small anti-wear benefit and possibly less piston deposits, is to use an oil rated dexos2, Mercedes 229.51, Porsche A40, BMW LL-04, and VW 502, combined, with a slightly higher HTHS.



Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 kind of comes close, as it's got dexos2, Mercedes 229.31, 229.51 and 229.52, VW 502, 503, 504, 505, 506, 507, BMWLL04 and instead of Porsche A40 it has Porsche C30. HTHS is the same 3.5 as 0w40 ESP though.

 

[benjy]

i am NOT aware that engines beside the small under powered turbo econo engines are having any LSPI issues! Redline is a superior oil + in warmer climates an 0W oil use is questionable as thinner base oils burn off quicker.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by benjy
i am NOT aware that engines beside the small under powered turbo econo engines are having any LSPI issues! Redline is a superior oil + in warmer climates an 0W oil use is questionable as thinner base oils burn off quicker.


A 0w-40 with an 8% Noack isn't burning off quicker than an ILSAC 5w30 with a 14% Noack. Sweeping generalizations tend to fall apart under scrutiny.

Redline is a good oil. With ZERO OEM approvals and very high levels of Calcium. It's formulation is ancient and subsequently LSPI was not in any way a consideration when it was originally drafted.

 

[2019StingrayZ51]

Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
The only way I can possibly see improving on M1 ESP 0w40, to get a small anti-wear benefit and possibly less piston deposits, is to use an oil rated dexos2, Mercedes 229.51, Porsche A40, BMW LL-04, and VW 502, combined, with a slightly higher HTHS. That M1 is HTHS 3.5, so going to HTHS 4.0 would be the most I'd go up. An all-PAO+Ester oil that does that is Ravenol RUP 5w-40, with NOACK 6.0, moly & tungsten FM, and HTHS 3.9.
You don't need the "0w" part of M1 ESP 0w40 in NC, warm enough there. The enormous number of engine tests done on the Ravenol RUP 5w-40 leaves no doubt it's a great oil. The 100% PAO-Ester base oil and interesting FMs are a bonus.
blauparts.com or amazon.com might have it.
https://www.ravenol.de/en/products/usage/d/Product/show/p/ravenol-rup-sae-5w-40.html


Thank you oil_film_movies, just the kind of info I needed. I was looking at Ravenol's VMO 5W-40 (and started a separate thread on it). This looks even better. Thanks for taking the time to respond with this!

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by benjy
i am NOT aware that engines beside the small under powered turbo econo engines are having any LSPI issues! Redline is a superior oil + in warmer climates an 0W oil use is questionable as thinner base oils burn off quicker.


A 0w-40 with an 8% Noack isn't burning off quicker than an ILSAC 5w30 with a 14% Noack. Sweeping generalizations tend to fall apart under scrutiny.

Redline is a good oil. With ZERO OEM approvals and very high levels of Calcium. It's formulation is ancient and subsequently LSPI was not in any way a consideration when it was originally drafted.



One consideration is if ZDDP was increased LSPI could be quenched.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by benjy
i am NOT aware that engines beside the small under powered turbo econo engines are having any LSPI issues! Redline is a superior oil + in warmer climates an 0W oil use is questionable as thinner base oils burn off quicker.


A 0w-40 with an 8% Noack isn't burning off quicker than an ILSAC 5w30 with a 14% Noack. Sweeping generalizations tend to fall apart under scrutiny.

Redline is a good oil. With ZERO OEM approvals and very high levels of Calcium. It's formulation is ancient and subsequently LSPI was not in any way a consideration when it was originally drafted.



One consideration is if ZDDP was increased LSPI could be quenched.


I recall there was SOME effectiveness with this approach, but I don't believe it was entirely able to mitigate it.

 

[CT8]

What about the Blow by gasses during operation with regards to possible intake valve deposits

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by 2019StingrayZ51
Hi all, another question from a newbie here. My Corvette calls for the new Dexos 2 certified Mobil 1 0W-40 ESP. As I understand it, Dexos 2 is a low-SAPS formulation which is meant to protect emissions systems, hence the "ESP" in the name of this particular one. I also understand this formulation is meant to be better for GDI engines as it should result in less build-up on the valves when vapors come back through the PCV system. So as I'm looking at alternatives to the M1 0W-40 (nothing against it at all, I've always been a big fan of M1) for maximum protection of the engine (as opposed to the catalysts), I keep coming back to Redline 5W-40. Thanks to all on here who have recommended it. It's not Dexos 2 nor a low-SAPS. But it has a very low NOACK of 6. Seems to me that with such a low evaporative loss, it shouldn't be sending much vapor (with the offending SAPS) back through the PCV system. Secondly, from all I've read, ester base oils are the "best" at protecting and keeping the engine clean, so how would you balance this vs. the need for low-SAPS. Thanks in advance for knowledge and insights!

You have a lot of misconceptions here.

First of all, it's not the PCV evaporated oil vapor that causes the intake-valve deposits. It's the PCV liquid oil-mist droplets. In that sense, it has nothing to do with the Noack.

Second, there is no such thing as an ester-based oil. Ester base stocks are no more than 15% of the base oil. M1 Euro formulas have about 5 - 10% ester and even Redline HP has only about 10 - 15% ester.

All this said, a better base oil such as PAO or GTL helps but there are other factors. Avoid full-SAPS oils (A3/B4) as well, as about half of the deposits are ash. You will get the deposits no matter what but these will help. Also, the VW 504.00 spec has an intake-valve-deposits test.

 

[OilUzer]

.

 

[Patman]

Originally Posted by Gokhan



All this said, a better base oil such as PAO or GTL helps but there are other factors. Avoid full-SAPS oils (A3/B4) as well, as about half of the deposits are ash. You will get the deposits no matter what but these will help. Also, the VW 504.00 spec has an intake-valve-deposits test.


Interesting. I had always thought the ESP Formula 5w30 I'm using now might be better for reducing the level of intake deposits since it's SA level is only 0.6% vs 0.8% for the new 5w30 ESP. But the new formula has VW 504.00 and the old formula doesn't list that. So I wonder which formula might be better in this regards?

edit-nevermind, I found another data sheet for ESP Formula 5w30 that shows it also has VW 504.00

 

[burla]

Ester and Pao better then minteral base oil for lspi, sadly some of the powerhouses refuse to lower calcium levels so I personally would go trying them. I asked Dave at Redline why they just don't do what m1 and everyone else will do some day and simply take CA sown 500 and add Mag 500, and Dave told me because he has never heard of any lspi events with redline oil. Kind of tone deaf if you ask me, it doesn't matter if everything in your formula is more of a lspi quencher then most any other oils, as is the case with redline, but you still have a high CA level. I think it is a matter of time before Redline follows the industry, just a little disapointed they haven't done so sooner..

 

[ChrisD46]

Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
The only way I can possibly see improving on M1 ESP 0w40, to get a small anti-wear benefit and possibly less piston deposits, is to use an oil rated dexos2, Mercedes 229.51, Porsche A40, BMW LL-04, and VW 502, combined, with a slightly higher HTHS.



Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 kind of comes close, as it's got dexos2, Mercedes 229.31, 229.51 and 229.52, VW 502, 503, 504, 505, 506, 507, BMWLL04 and instead of Porsche A40 it has Porsche C30. HTHS is the same 3.5 as 0w40 ESP though.

*Pennzoil also has a 5W30 synthetic "Euro" oil available at WM .

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted by burla
Ester and Pao better then minteral base oil for lspi, sadly some of the powerhouses refuse to lower calcium levels so I personally would go trying them. I asked Dave at Redline why they just don't do what m1 and everyone else will do some day and simply take CA sown 500 and add Mag 500, and Dave told me because he has never heard of any lspi events with redline oil. Kind of tone deaf if you ask me, it doesn't matter if everything in your formula is more of a lspi quencher then most any other oils, as is the case with redline, but you still have a high CA level. I think it is a matter of time before Redline follows the industry, just a little disapointed they haven't done so sooner..


DID Dave cite the high ZDDP levels in Red Line as a basis/reason for him "never having heard of any LSPI events" with his company's white funnel bottle 'street' oils?