Does the sulfated ash (SA) level really matter for intake-valve deposits (IVD)?

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Right, it's not a controlled experiment to study the emissions resulting from a high-SAPS oil in a 20-year-old engine with outdated technology vs. the emissions resulting from a mid-SAPS oil in a brand-new, state-of-the-art engine.

What's next? Should we use the emissions of a 1967 Volkswagen Beetle on a full-SAPS oil as the control subject?
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Gee whiz. The VW engines in question are both direct injected modern engines, one a 2007 and one a 2011. The engine the Audi is an extremely similar architecture to those two as well. To compare them to an air cooled carbureted engine is nothing more than hyperbole. I even started the whole post with "my evidence is anecdotal."

I guess when you make one argument (gpf) and then come to find you are completely wrong you have to deflect attention elsewhere.

1967 Beetle was a joke. However, the engines you mention are still over ten years old.

I didn't make the GPF argument.


But you did agree with it.

I actually didn't mean "you" specifically which is why I edited the post


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Reached out to Dave at Redline to get their SA levels and he provided me the following:

RL Product.........Sulfated Ash
Euro 5w-30.............0.63%
Euro 5w-40.............0.78%
non-euro 5w-30......1.20%
non-euro 5w-40......1.20%

Most likely will be moving to Redline Euro for my MINI DI Turbo.
 
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Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
I actually didn't mean "you" specifically which is why I edited the post


cheers3.gif


No worries.

As I said try the M1 FS 0W-40 A3/B4 or Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4 and let us know if you notice anything different in your emissions over the M1 ESP 5W-30 C2/C3 VW 504.00. I bet you won't.
 
Originally Posted by NYSteve
Reached out to Dave at Redline to get their SA levels and he provided me the following:

RL Product.........Sulfated Ash
Euro 5w-30.............0.63%
Euro 5w-40.............0.78%
non-euro 5w-30......1.20%
non-euro 5w-40......1.20%

Most likely will be moving to Redline Euro for my MINI DI Turbo.


Thanks for sharing this. RL's support is very good.

I think with the low Noack and high POE content with RL, the IVD's would be minimal and it would be a good oil for GDI engines. The only concern with RL is LSPI.
 
Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by Direct_Rejection
It would be interesting to hear the thoughts from buster , Gokhan, et al in this vein re...
Amsoil ALM Signature Series 5W20.

--Lowest of NOACK at 5.8
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--Healthy slug o' calcium
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--POE
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--High TBN
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This is why I log in at BITOG !
Tremendous info.
Lively debate.


With Mobil 1 AP/EP, you're getting the best of both worlds.

Mobil 1 AP 0w20: (fortified with a proprietary anti-aging technology system)
PAO/AN
Noack - 8.9%
SA - .8

Amsoil SS 0w20:
PAO/POE
Noack 8.5%
SA - 1.10

*Whether by accident or design, Mobil 1 switched to a Mg/Ca LSPI friendly detergent system in 2012.


Thanks buster

M1 AFE 0W16
TGMO 0W16 (certified GF-6B as of today.)
M1 EP/AP 0W20
VME 0W20
HPL 0W12, 0W16 or 0W20 (two formulas, SP and extra beefy!)

My final candidates moving forward.
 
Originally Posted by Direct_Rejection
TGMO 0W16 (certified GF-6B as of today.)

I see they have updated the MSDS for Mobil Super 0W-16 as well, and it's still a GTL-based oil like TGMO 0W-16.

As I said in the "Excited for API SP?" thread, none of the PAO-based Mobil 1's (AFE 0W-16, AFE 0W-20 (half-PAO-based), EP 0W-20, and AP 0W-20) have been updated to SP/GF-6.
 
My take on intake valve deposits, is that it has nothing to do with the base oil or additive chemistry. It has to do with the fact the intake port is subject to very low pressure (vacuum) especially during deceleration when the throttle is closed and the rpm is high. Thin, hot, low viscosity engine oil will get past the valve stem seals, into the intake port and onto the hot intake valve.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Direct_Rejection
TGMO 0W16 (certified GF-6B as of today.)

I see they have updated the MSDS for Mobil Super 0W-16 as well, and it's still a GTL-based oil like TGMO 0W-16.

As I said in the "Excited for API SP?" thread, none of the PAO-based Mobil 1's (AFE 0W-16, AFE 0W-20 (half-PAO-based), EP 0W-20, and AP 0W-20) have been updated to SP/GF-6.


I am still waiting for the Mobil 1 AFE 0W16 API SP. Wonder if it's going to change anything.
 
Originally Posted by userfriendly
My take on intake valve deposits, is that it has nothing to do with the base oil or additive chemistry. It has to do with the fact the intake port is subject to very low pressure (vacuum) especially during deceleration when the throttle is closed and the rpm is high. Thin, hot, low viscosity engine oil will get past the valve stem seals, into the intake port and onto the hot intake valve.


True, but in cases where the oil does come in contact with the valve, the type of oil can make a difference.
 
What has changed ? With DI we don't have detergent gasoline making contact with the backside. Yet, I'd argue that fuels continued to improve in the last few years.

So what is the source of this goo if not oil related ?
And why do we have all these deposit tests that point to higher group base stocks being the cleanest ?
Air is probably the same … so we have air, fuel, and oil …
 
Originally Posted by 4WD
What has changed ? With DI we don't have detergent gasoline making contact with the backside. Yet, I'd argue that fuels continued to improve in the last few years.

So what is the source of this goo if not oil related ?
And why do we have all these deposit tests that point to higher group base stocks being the cleanest ?
Air is probably the same … so we have air, fuel, and oil …

Most people can't figure out the intake dirt and the crankcase blow by and oil mist from the pcv. It is hilarious.
 
Soot / exhaust gases also flows past the intake valve(s) during valve overlap in larger quantities during times of poor combustion and exhaust evacuation (such as excessive idling).
 
I watched a few how-to videos on the Focus ST last night. I slept on it, and decided to fight this battle with everything available. When I get my hands on everything I need, I'm going to pull the intake & clean the valves, install a JLT catch can, and change the oil to Valvoline Modern Engine 5W-30.

Hope to have good news when I poke the camera back in there again after 5,000 miles.
 
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
I watched a few how-to videos on the Focus ST last night. I slept on it, and decided to fight this battle with everything available. When I get my hands on everything I need, I'm going to pull the intake & clean the valves, install a JLT catch can, and change the oil to Valvoline Modern Engine 5W-30.

Hope to have good news when I poke the camera back in there again after 5,000 miles.




Do you really think there will be a difference after 5000 miles?

I am under the impression that these oils prevent buildups, not clean up after they happen.
 
Originally Posted by painfx
I am still waiting for the Mobil 1 AFE 0W16 API SP. Wonder if it's going to change anything.

Camry has dual port/fuel injection; so, there are no intake-valve deposits to worry about (no different than for port injection).
 
5W30 in Texas summer heat with a 2L turbo engine? Maybe control the oil consumption with a different grade and go from there.

What do you call performing the same experiment over and over expecting a different result?
 
Originally Posted by userfriendly
5W30 in Texas summer heat with a 2L turbo engine? Maybe control the oil consumption with a different grade and go from there.

What do you call performing the same experiment over and over expecting a different result?

Yeah, I can see if the valve-stem oil seals are leaking, you don't want to run anything less than a SAE xW-40 in a GDI engine because of the IVD. Therefore, perhaps Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 A3/B4 is the best choice for GDI with leaky seals, as you also get a top-notch base oil with some high-solvency ester and a very strong detergent. Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4 is similar, but you don't get the cleaning ester. The best solution is to have the seals replaced, but that's a costly job.
 
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
I watched a few how-to videos on the Focus ST last night. I slept on it, and decided to fight this battle with everything available. When I get my hands on everything I need, I'm going to pull the intake & clean the valves, install a JLT catch can, and change the oil to Valvoline Modern Engine 5W-30.

Hope to have good news when I poke the camera back in there again after 5,000 miles.




Do you really think there will be a difference after 5000 miles?

I am under the impression that these oils prevent buildups, not clean up after they happen.


Read my post again. I'm going to clean the valves, and check them after an OCI to see if they stay clean.
 
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