Does the sulfated ash (SA) level really matter for intake-valve deposits (IVD)?

Messages
1,255
Location
Vancouver
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Right, it's not a controlled experiment to study the emissions resulting from a high-SAPS oil in a 20-year-old engine with outdated technology vs. the emissions resulting from a mid-SAPS oil in a brand-new, state-of-the-art engine. What's next? Should we use the emissions of a 1967 Volkswagen Beetle on a full-SAPS oil as the control subject? wink
Gee whiz. The VW engines in question are both direct injected modern engines, one a 2007 and one a 2011. The engine the Audi is an extremely similar architecture to those two as well. To compare them to an air cooled carbureted engine is nothing more than hyperbole. I even started the whole post with "my evidence is anecdotal." I guess when you make one argument (gpf) and then come to find you are completely wrong you have to deflect attention elsewhere.
1967 Beetle was a joke. However, the engines you mention are still over ten years old. I didn't make the GPF argument.
But you did agree with it. I actually didn't mean "you" specifically which is why I edited the post cheers
 
Messages
640
Location
Phladelphia
Reached out to Dave at Redline to get their SA levels and he provided me the following: RL Product.........Sulfated Ash Euro 5w-30.............0.63% Euro 5w-40.............0.78% non-euro 5w-30......1.20% non-euro 5w-40......1.20% Most likely will be moving to Redline Euro for my MINI DI Turbo.
 
Last edited:

Gokhan

Thread starter
Messages
5,327
Location
Paramount, California
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
I actually didn't mean "you" specifically which is why I edited the post cheers
No worries. As I said try the M1 FS 0W-40 A3/B4 or Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4 and let us know if you notice anything different in your emissions over the M1 ESP 5W-30 C2/C3 VW 504.00. I bet you won't.
 
Messages
34,157
Location
Southern NJ
Originally Posted by NYSteve
Reached out to Dave at Redline to get their SA levels and he provided me the following: RL Product.........Sulfated Ash Euro 5w-30.............0.63% Euro 5w-40.............0.78% non-euro 5w-30......1.20% non-euro 5w-40......1.20% Most likely will be moving to Redline Euro for my MINI DI Turbo.
Thanks for sharing this. RL's support is very good. I think with the low Noack and high POE content with RL, the IVD's would be minimal and it would be a good oil for GDI engines. The only concern with RL is LSPI.
 
Messages
576
Location
California
Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by Direct_Rejection
It would be interesting to hear the thoughts from buster , Gokhan, et al in this vein re... Amsoil ALM Signature Series 5W20. --Lowest of NOACK at 5.8 shocked2 --Healthy slug o' calcium LOL --POE cool --High TBN laugh This is why I log in at BITOG ! Tremendous info. Lively debate.
With Mobil 1 AP/EP, you're getting the best of both worlds. Mobil 1 AP 0w20: (fortified with a proprietary anti-aging technology system) PAO/AN Noack - 8.9% SA - .8 Amsoil SS 0w20: PAO/POE Noack 8.5% SA - 1.10 *Whether by accident or design, Mobil 1 switched to a Mg/Ca LSPI friendly detergent system in 2012.
Thanks buster M1 AFE 0W16 TGMO 0W16 (certified GF-6B as of today.) M1 EP/AP 0W20 VME 0W20 HPL 0W12, 0W16 or 0W20 (two formulas, SP and extra beefy!) My final candidates moving forward.
 

Gokhan

Thread starter
Messages
5,327
Location
Paramount, California
Originally Posted by Direct_Rejection
TGMO 0W16 (certified GF-6B as of today.)
I see they have updated the MSDS for Mobil Super 0W-16 as well, and it's still a GTL-based oil like TGMO 0W-16. As I said in the "Excited for API SP?" thread, none of the PAO-based Mobil 1's (AFE 0W-16, AFE 0W-20 (half-PAO-based), EP 0W-20, and AP 0W-20) have been updated to SP/GF-6.
 
Messages
3,332
Location
BC, Canada
My take on intake valve deposits, is that it has nothing to do with the base oil or additive chemistry. It has to do with the fact the intake port is subject to very low pressure (vacuum) especially during deceleration when the throttle is closed and the rpm is high. Thin, hot, low viscosity engine oil will get past the valve stem seals, into the intake port and onto the hot intake valve.
 
Messages
815
Location
Cali
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Direct_Rejection
TGMO 0W16 (certified GF-6B as of today.)
I see they have updated the MSDS for Mobil Super 0W-16 as well, and it's still a GTL-based oil like TGMO 0W-16. As I said in the "Excited for API SP?" thread, none of the PAO-based Mobil 1's (AFE 0W-16, AFE 0W-20 (half-PAO-based), EP 0W-20, and AP 0W-20) have been updated to SP/GF-6.
I am still waiting for the Mobil 1 AFE 0W16 API SP. Wonder if it's going to change anything.
 
Messages
34,157
Location
Southern NJ
Originally Posted by userfriendly
My take on intake valve deposits, is that it has nothing to do with the base oil or additive chemistry. It has to do with the fact the intake port is subject to very low pressure (vacuum) especially during deceleration when the throttle is closed and the rpm is high. Thin, hot, low viscosity engine oil will get past the valve stem seals, into the intake port and onto the hot intake valve.
True, but in cases where the oil does come in contact with the valve, the type of oil can make a difference.
 

4WD

Messages
16,709
Location
Texas
What has changed ? With DI we don't have detergent gasoline making contact with the backside. Yet, I'd argue that fuels continued to improve in the last few years. So what is the source of this goo if not oil related ? And why do we have all these deposit tests that point to higher group base stocks being the cleanest ? Air is probably the same … so we have air, fuel, and oil …
 

CT8

Messages
15,392
Location
Idaho
Originally Posted by 4WD
What has changed ? With DI we don't have detergent gasoline making contact with the backside. Yet, I'd argue that fuels continued to improve in the last few years. So what is the source of this goo if not oil related ? And why do we have all these deposit tests that point to higher group base stocks being the cleanest ? Air is probably the same … so we have air, fuel, and oil …
Most people can't figure out the intake dirt and the crankcase blow by and oil mist from the pcv. It is hilarious.
 
Messages
1,784
Location
South Carolina
Soot / exhaust gases also flows past the intake valve(s) during valve overlap in larger quantities during times of poor combustion and exhaust evacuation (such as excessive idling).
 
Messages
1,475
Location
Texas, USA
I watched a few how-to videos on the Focus ST last night. I slept on it, and decided to fight this battle with everything available. When I get my hands on everything I need, I'm going to pull the intake & clean the valves, install a JLT catch can, and change the oil to Valvoline Modern Engine 5W-30. Hope to have good news when I poke the camera back in there again after 5,000 miles.
 
Messages
17,041
Location
...
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
I watched a few how-to videos on the Focus ST last night. I slept on it, and decided to fight this battle with everything available. When I get my hands on everything I need, I'm going to pull the intake & clean the valves, install a JLT catch can, and change the oil to Valvoline Modern Engine 5W-30. Hope to have good news when I poke the camera back in there again after 5,000 miles.
Do you really think there will be a difference after 5000 miles? I am under the impression that these oils prevent buildups, not clean up after they happen.
 

Gokhan

Thread starter
Messages
5,327
Location
Paramount, California
Originally Posted by painfx
I am still waiting for the Mobil 1 AFE 0W16 API SP. Wonder if it's going to change anything.
Camry has dual port/fuel injection; so, there are no intake-valve deposits to worry about (no different than for port injection).
 
Messages
3,332
Location
BC, Canada
5W30 in Texas summer heat with a 2L turbo engine? Maybe control the oil consumption with a different grade and go from there. What do you call performing the same experiment over and over expecting a different result?
 

Gokhan

Thread starter
Messages
5,327
Location
Paramount, California
Originally Posted by userfriendly
5W30 in Texas summer heat with a 2L turbo engine? Maybe control the oil consumption with a different grade and go from there. What do you call performing the same experiment over and over expecting a different result?
Yeah, I can see if the valve-stem oil seals are leaking, you don't want to run anything less than a SAE xW-40 in a GDI engine because of the IVD. Therefore, perhaps Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 A3/B4 is the best choice for GDI with leaky seals, as you also get a top-notch base oil with some high-solvency ester and a very strong detergent. Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4 is similar, but you don't get the cleaning ester. The best solution is to have the seals replaced, but that's a costly job.
 
Messages
1,475
Location
Texas, USA
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
I watched a few how-to videos on the Focus ST last night. I slept on it, and decided to fight this battle with everything available. When I get my hands on everything I need, I'm going to pull the intake & clean the valves, install a JLT catch can, and change the oil to Valvoline Modern Engine 5W-30. Hope to have good news when I poke the camera back in there again after 5,000 miles.
Do you really think there will be a difference after 5000 miles? I am under the impression that these oils prevent buildups, not clean up after they happen.
Read my post again. I'm going to clean the valves, and check them after an OCI to see if they stay clean.
 
Last edited:
Top