Does the sulfated ash (SA) level really matter for intake-valve deposits (IVD)?

Gokhan

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Originally Posted by Kamele0N
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
My evidence is anectodal but after using 502 oil for twelve years in two different VW's, and now using 504 in an Audi for over two, the difference in tailpipe soot and oil color over time is huge.
I concur. Very huge! Almost no tailpipe soot in my VR6 using 504.00 after 9.5k miles
Thats because VAG is using GPF filters....and they collect&burn soot like DPF ones.... In fact...all modern TGDi engines nowadays have to be equiped with them othervise they polute even more then diesel engine(s) with deleted DPF... https://www.fuelsandlubes.com/fli-a...ection-engines-tgdi-little-known-secret/ https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/new-petrol-engines-cause-more-air-pollution-dirty-diesels
Just a FYI...GPF is not required in the United States so I doubt VW would include them for US bound vehicles. In any case even it doesn't negate the statements by these two because they're both commenting about different oil used for their own vehicle. Not different oils in different vehicles.
 
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Originally Posted by Direct_Rejection
It would be interesting to hear the thoughts from buster , Gokhan, et al in this vein re... Amsoil ALM Signature Series 5W20. --Lowest of NOACK at 5.8 shocked2 --Healthy slug o' calcium LOL --POE cool --High TBN laugh This is why I log in at BITOG ! Tremendous info. Lively debate.
With Mobil 1 AP/EP, you're getting the best of both worlds. Mobil 1 AP 0w20: (fortified with a proprietary anti-aging technology system) PAO/AN Noack - 8.9% SA - .8 Amsoil SS 0w20: PAO/POE Noack 8.5% SA - 1.10 *Whether by accident or design, Mobil 1 switched to a Mg/Ca LSPI friendly detergent system in 2012.
 
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by buster
Quote
The part about claiming low-SAPS reduces IVD over full-SAPS is flawed because they are comparing an inferior Euro III full-SAPS oil to a superior Euro IV low-SAPS oils. They are supposed to have a controlled experiment to make such a claim, in which they keep everything except SAPS constant.
Agree. Quite surprised they did that.
Proof? Again, based upon what? What's this "inferior Euro 3"? Euro 4 oils are by definition lower SAPs no?
SonofJoe -- a retired oil blender from the UK -- blasted the Lubrizol study. Mike McCabe is the Lubrizol official who had made the presentation.
Originally Posted by SonofJoe
The blanket statement that high SAPS engine oils result in worse Inlet Valve Deposits on GDI engines is total and utter bollocks!!!! It may have been 11 years ago but even so, Mike McMabe should hang his head in shame for peddling such misleading and self-serving propaganda. Okay, let's go back to 2006 when this presentation was issued. If you look at the maximum permitted Sulphated Ash levels for 'normal' ACEA oils, they appear very high ranging from 1.3% (for A1/B1) to 1.6% (for A3/B4). But these are MAXIMUM levels. There were no minimum ash levels and at the time nor were there any minimum TBN limits. The reality was that in 2006, the ash levels of these oils was no where near the maximum limits. At a rough guess, a typical European SL/CF/A3/B4/MB229.1/VW505 oil (that was sort of the typical market spec level) would have a TBN of 8-ish and an ash of 0.8-ish. In other words, ash-wise, these oils weren't a million miles from the ash specs of ACEA C2 & C3 low SAPS oils. Also, while Phosphorus wasn't explicitly limited for ACEA oils, most commercial oils had P levels of under 1000 ppm; so again, not a million miles from the 900 ppm max of most of the low SAPs grades. Now let's look at A1/B1. A1/B1 was always something of a grudging nod by ACEA to what was happening in the US on fuel economy oils. Most of the big European OEMs didn't want it as they were still very much wedded to their 3.5 min HTHS limit, but people like Ford could see a place for 2.9 min HTHS oils in Europe. A1/B1 was US-like in other ways. It allowed oils with upto 15% Noack (vs 13% max for all other oils) so importantly it could be made from Group I/II oils. Secondly, unlike other ACEA oils, A1/B1 did not have to stay-in-grade on the KO30 shear test, meaning that it could use US-like high SSI VIIs. Thirdly, and critically, A1/B1 oils were allowed an easy ride on the Peugeot TU5 test. There's one other relevant piece of the jigsaw to share. Whilst A1/B1 oils are notionally dual-use oils (ie for both gasoline & Diesel engines), the OEMs that plugged them did NOT recommend them for Diesel. So now we get to this field trial that so convincingly 'demonstrated' that a Euro 3, OEM recommended, high SAPs oil gave far worse IVDs on a GDI engine than a Euro 4 low SAPs oil. Now the presentation gives no details on what oils were compared but one might imagine a scenario where an AddCo, keen to capitalise on a new market opportunity, compares a high SAPs oil with a low SAPs oil. Obviously they want the trial to give the 'right' result that suits their commercial purposes. So what do they do? Might they compare an mineral-based, 5W30, nominally (but not really) high SAPs, A1/B1 oil (with its attendant high Noack) to a full synthetic (possibly PAO) low SAPs oil (with presumably a very low Noack). Given the mechanism by which valve deposits are formed, which do you think will demonstrate the better performance??? Well of course the low SAPs oil will so QED, high SAPs oil is bad m'kay? Finally let's consider what Direct Gasoline Injection might have been used for this field trial. As I recall, there weren't that many around back then but one was about to be launched; the infamous Audi 2.0L TFSI engine. Yep. That one. The one that ate oil like it was going out of style. The one that suffered from obscene amounts of inlet valve deposits. The one that was subject to a class action lawsuit suit in the US. Do we still think it's right to blame high SAPs oil for causing IVD problems or might it possibly be that the engine itself was a dog?? Some folks really do need to stop treating every single thing they read on the internet as Gospel and mindlessly parroting messages that are simply not true.
SonOfJoe completely misses the point. (I know I wasn't going to comment but this comment from him is just silly). My reply, It does not matter what the typical SAPS levels are of various A3/B4 oils. They fall somewhere within a standard and so what. In this case what does matter are the maximum levels allowed because by definition it delineates what is standard within the applicable ACEA specification. If you're not comparing standards then you can't draw a valid conclusion.
 
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Originally Posted by Kamele0N
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
My evidence is anectodal but after using 502 oil for twelve years in two different VW's, and now using 504 in an Audi for over two, the difference in tailpipe soot and oil color over time is huge.
I concur. Very huge! Almost no tailpipe soot in my VR6 using 504.00 after 9.5k miles
Thats because VAG is using GPF filters....and they collect&burn soot like DPF ones.... In fact...all modern TGDi engines nowadays have to be equiped with them othervise they polute even more then diesel engine(s) with deleted DPF... https://www.fuelsandlubes.com/fli-a...ection-engines-tgdi-little-known-secret/ https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/new-petrol-engines-cause-more-air-pollution-dirty-diesels
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Kamele0N
Thats because VAG is using GPF filters....and they collect&burn soot like DPF ones.... In fact...all modern TGDi engines nowadays have to be equiped with them othervise they polute even more then diesel engine(s) with deleted DPF... https://www.fuelsandlubes.com/fli-a...ection-engines-tgdi-little-known-secret/ https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/new-petrol-engines-cause-more-air-pollution-dirty-diesels
Ha! thumbsup
Uhh, no. There are no gpf equipped VAG cars sold in North America. None. They also didn't even start in Europe until 2019 model year.
 
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Originally Posted by pbm
Thanks Buster.....Wouldn't it be nice to know what oils meet that criteria. I'll probably just run regular syns. and keep the OCI to about 6 or 7K. I don't think the GDI Duratech is particularly prone to IVD'S.
The non-turbo Focus may suffer less from it, but they are still prone to it. Below are pictures of the valves in my 2017 Focus ST at 24,000 miles. Once I get the valves cleaned, I'm thinking about taking my chances with the lack of SN+. and switching to Redline 10W-30 to minimize NOACK, SAPS, and viscosity improvers, vs. a 5W-30 or 5W-40. Still debating if I want to embark on the hassle of installing a catch can as well, as they're producing good results with the guys on the Focus ST forum. I just don't want to repeat this every 25,000 miles. Thoughts?

Valve1.JPG


Valve2.JPG
 
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Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
Originally Posted by pbm
Thanks Buster.....Wouldn't it be nice to know what oils meet that criteria. I'll probably just run regular syns. and keep the OCI to about 6 or 7K. I don't think the GDI Duratech is particularly prone to IVD'S.
The non-turbo Focus may suffer less from it, but they are still prone to it. Below are pictures of the valves in my 2017 Focus ST at 24,000 miles. Once I get the valves cleaned, I'm thinking about taking my chances with the lack of SN+. and switching to Redline 10W-30 to minimize NOACK, SAPS, and viscosity improvers, vs. a 5W-30 or 5W-40. Still debating if I want to embark on the hassle of installing a catch can as well, as they're producing good results with the guys on the Focus ST forum. I just don't want to repeat this every 25,000 miles. Thoughts?
That's a lot of buildup for only 24,000 miles. What oils have you used to date? The jury is still out on this but I would say the main culprit is the engine design/make first. As far as oils go for this issue, there are a number of qualities to look for. Base oil quality, Noack, SAP, detergent/dispersant package, solvency etc. Valvoline Modern Engine (which they claim reduced IVD's by 40%) - SA .8 -.9 - Noack for 20 grades is 8.5-10% Mobil 1 AP/EP - PAO/AN - boosted anti oxidants - SA .8 - Noack - 8-9% Boutique: Driven - PAO/III/V - SA .722 - Noack - 11% - TEOST 15mg Amsoil - PAO/V - SA 1.10 - Noack 6-9% Redline - PAO/V - Full SAP - Noack 6-9% High Performance Lubricants - PAO/V - Mid SAP - Noack unknown - HPL claims they use select esters and reduced detergents which help keep IV's clean.
 
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Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
Originally Posted by pbm
Thanks Buster.....Wouldn't it be nice to know what oils meet that criteria. I'll probably just run regular syns. and keep the OCI to about 6 or 7K. I don't think the GDI Duratech is particularly prone to IVD'S.
The non-turbo Focus may suffer less from it, but they are still prone to it. Below are pictures of the valves in my 2017 Focus ST at 24,000 miles. Once I get the valves cleaned, I'm thinking about taking my chances with the lack of SN+. and switching to Redline 10W-30 to minimize NOACK, SAPS, and viscosity improvers, vs. a 5W-30 or 5W-40. Still debating if I want to embark on the hassle of installing a catch can as well, as they're producing good results with the guys on the Focus ST forum. I just don't want to repeat this every 25,000 miles. Thoughts?
That's a lot of buildup for only 24,000 miles. What oils have you used to date? The jury is still out on this but I would say the main culprit is the engine design/make first. As far as oils go for this issue, there are a number of qualities to look for. Base oil quality, Noack, SAP, detergent/dispersant package, solvency etc. Valvoline Modern Engine (which they claim reduced IVD's by 40%) - SA .8 -.9 - Noack for 20 grades is 8.5-10% Mobil 1 AP/EP - PAO/AN - boosted anti oxidants - SA .8 - Noack - 8-9% Boutique: Driven - PAO/III/V - SA .722 - Noack - 11% - TEOST 15mg Amsoil - PAO/V - SA 1.10 - Noack 6-9% Redline - PAO/V - Full SAP - Noack 6-9% High Performance Lubricants - PAO/V - Mid SAP - Noack unknown - HPL claims they use select esters and reduced detergents which help keep IV's clean.
Thanks for all the good data! Previous oils used is unknown. I just bought the car a month ago. I'm guessing it got whatever Ford, or Jiffy Lube decided to use that day. There was a sticker on the windshield that said 5W-20...my first hint at a clueless previous owner, or dealership. STs are spec'd for 5W-30. My biggest question of this whole situation is this: Is there an oil that is more resistant to burning onto the valve stems? Are PAO / Esters more temperature resistant than group III "synthetic", or is this going to happen to all oils due to the extreme temps? I'm not afraid to use heavier oils in this engine if they'll make less of a mess up top. I'm in Texas and the car lives in a garage at home and at work. 20 grade is out of the question. Valvoline Modern Engine's claim is bold . Do you happen to know the NOACK for their 5W-30? I don't necessarily want to spend $80 on Redline / Amsoil at each OCI, so if there's a good performer on the shelf at WalMart, I'm interested.
 
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https://team.valvoline.com/modern-engine-full-synthetic-motor-oil Valvoline Modern Engine Noack for the 5w30 is 8.2%. You have to order it via Walmart/Amazon though. Your PAO/V base oils will resist oxidation better. If you're looking for the best choice without ordering it, Mobil 1Annual Protection, Extended Performance and Valvoline Modern Engine would be my choices. Some would argue Mobil 1 Annual Protection is the best among all oils in this area, regardless.
 

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Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
Originally Posted by pbm
Thanks Buster.....Wouldn't it be nice to know what oils meet that criteria. I'll probably just run regular syns. and keep the OCI to about 6 or 7K. I don't think the GDI Duratech is particularly prone to IVD'S.
The non-turbo Focus may suffer less from it, but they are still prone to it. Below are pictures of the valves in my 2017 Focus ST at 24,000 miles. Once I get the valves cleaned, I'm thinking about taking my chances with the lack of SN+. and switching to Redline 10W-30 to minimize NOACK, SAPS, and viscosity improvers, vs. a 5W-30 or 5W-40. Still debating if I want to embark on the hassle of installing a catch can as well, as they're producing good results with the guys on the Focus ST forum. I just don't want to repeat this every 25,000 miles. Thoughts?
Is that picture taken from the intake manifold with the bottom of the valve stem showing shiny black and the rest of the valve showing shiny metal gray? If that's so, perhaps the shiny-metal-gray area is mostly metal ash, while the valve-stem area is mostly coked base oil. Perhaps it's hard to tell from the picture with the light reflecting in a strange way. On a second thought, since the stem is at 90 degrees to the camera, I am guessing it's all shiny black; therefore, it's all mostly coked base oil, not metal ash.
 
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It's a cheap endoscope, and the leds on the tip cause pictures to look overexposed. All the silver is actually black, it's just shiny and appears silver. I fed the camera up through the symposer port on the right lower side of the intake, rather than unbolting the intake. I'm saving that joy for when I embark on cleaning the valves.
 
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Originally Posted by buster
https://team.valvoline.com/modern-engine-full-synthetic-motor-oil Valvoline Modern Engine Noack for the 5w30 is 8.2%. You have to order it via Walmart/Amazon though. Your PAO/V base oils will resist oxidation better. If you're looking for the best choice without ordering it, Mobil 1Annual Protection, Extended Performance and Valvoline Modern Engine would be my choices. Some would argue Mobil 1 Annual Protection is the best among all oils in this area, regardless.
I'd like your opinion on this statement. smile
 

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Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
It's a cheap endoscope, and the leds on the tip cause pictures to look overexposed. All the silver is actually black, it's just shiny and appears silver. I fed the camera up through the symposer port on the right lower side of the intake, rather than unbolting the intake. I'm saving that joy for when I embark on cleaning the valves.
Yeah, on a second thought, since the stem is at 90 degrees to the camera, I am guessing it's all shiny black; therefore, it's all mostly coked base oil, not metal ash.
 
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
[quote=Jimmy_Russells]My evidence is anectodal but after using 502 oil for twelve years in two different VW's, and now using 504 in an Audi for over two, the difference in tailpipe soot and oil color over time is huge.
Just a FYI...GPF is not required in the United States so I doubt VW would include them for US bound vehicles. In any case even it doesn't negate the statements by these two because they're both commenting about different oil used for their own vehicle. Not different oils in different vehicles.
Well....its not my native language....but I do understand it smile He was using vw502 oil for 12years in two different VolksWagens....thats one "event".....statement... And (I am guessing that) then he has sold those 2 VolksWagens...bought that Audi he possesses....and nowadays he is using vw504/507 (there is no such oil as vw504 only) oil in it smile So it is "two different oils in three different vehicles" story....
 

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Originally Posted by Kamele0N
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
My evidence is anectodal but after using 502 oil for twelve years in two different VW's, and now using 504 in an Audi for over two, the difference in tailpipe soot and oil color over time is huge.
Just a FYI...GPF is not required in the United States so I doubt VW would include them for US bound vehicles. In any case even it doesn't negate the statements by these two because they're both commenting about different oil used for their own vehicle. Not different oils in different vehicles.
Well....its not my native language....but I do understand it smile He was using vw502 oil for 12years in two different VolksWagens....thats one "event".....statement... And (I am guessing that) then he has sold those 2 VolksWagens...bought that Audi he possesses....and nowadays he is using vw504/507 (there is no such oil as vw504 only) oil in it smile So it is "two different oils in three different vehicles" story....
Right, it's not a controlled experiment to study the emissions resulting from a high-SAPS oil in a 20-year-old engine with outdated technology vs. the emissions resulting from a mid-SAPS oil in a brand-new, state-of-the-art engine. What's next? Should we use the emissions of a 1967 Volkswagen Beetle on a full-SAPS oil as the control subject? wink
 
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Originally Posted by WylieCoyote
Originally Posted by buster
https://team.valvoline.com/modern-engine-full-synthetic-motor-oil Valvoline Modern Engine Noack for the 5w30 is 8.2%. You have to order it via Walmart/Amazon though. Your PAO/V base oils will resist oxidation better. If you're looking for the best choice without ordering it, Mobil 1Annual Protection, Extended Performance and Valvoline Modern Engine would be my choices. Some would argue Mobil 1 Annual Protection is the best among all oils in this area, regardless.
I'd like your opinion on this statement. smile
Tough to beat all things considered.
 
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Mr. W.Coyote; I use 15W40 or 50/50 10W30/SAE40 in my daughter's 2014 2L turbo Escape with zero oil consumption between 5k mile oil changes. #3600 filters There is no transmission oil cooler, so I use HV fluids (Petro-Can syn THF!) there too with no issues. Note; What I do is not a recommendation or suggestion. I'm your great-grandfather's 20W50, the solution to all problems caused by LV engine oils.
 
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
Right, it's not a controlled experiment to study the emissions resulting from a high-SAPS oil in a 20-year-old engine with outdated technology vs. the emissions resulting from a mid-SAPS oil in a brand-new, state-of-the-art engine. What's next? Should we use the emissions of a 1967 Volkswagen Beetle on a full-SAPS oil as the control subject? wink
Gee whiz. The VW engines in question are both direct injected modern engines, one a 2007 and one a 2011. The engine the Audi is an extremely similar architecture to those two as well. To compare them to an air cooled carbureted engine is nothing more than hyperbole. I even started the whole post with "my evidence is anecdotal." I guess when someone makes one argument (gpf) and then come to find they are completely wrong they have to deflect attention elsewhere.
 

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Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Right, it's not a controlled experiment to study the emissions resulting from a high-SAPS oil in a 20-year-old engine with outdated technology vs. the emissions resulting from a mid-SAPS oil in a brand-new, state-of-the-art engine. What's next? Should we use the emissions of a 1967 Volkswagen Beetle on a full-SAPS oil as the control subject? wink
Gee whiz. The VW engines in question are both direct injected modern engines, one a 2007 and one a 2011. The engine the Audi is an extremely similar architecture to those two as well. To compare them to an air cooled carbureted engine is nothing more than hyperbole. I even started the whole post with "my evidence is anecdotal." I guess when you make one argument (gpf) and then come to find you are completely wrong you have to deflect attention elsewhere.
1967 Beetle was a joke. However, the engines you mention are still over ten years old. There were about two iterations of the European emission standards in between. I didn't make the GPF argument. Try the M1 FS 0W-40 A3/B4 or Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4 and let us know if you notice anything different in your emissions over the M1 ESP 5W-30 C2/C3 VW 504.00. I bet you won't.
 
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