Mercedes OM642 3.0L diesel analysis 250,000km

CleanSump

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Honestly, it’s Asinine to state a Modern Diesel rated oil (ACEA or API) causes DPF failure.

Dubious at best when few here know or understand why the Bluetec system has so negative (and rightly so) history.
Go to the MB and Sprinter forums for a dose of reality.
Done with this nonsense.
 
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So basically then there is no difference between Ful SAPS oil like Casrol Edge 0W40 with 1.15% and 0.8%? Right? If the difference between 0.8% and 1% is irrelevant, then 1.15% is irrelevant, or 1.32% in M1 0W40? I mean, you know what, just use Valvoline Racing oil with 1800ppm Zinc, and bunch of SAPS.
There is only one person in this thread that does not have a clue, and we all know who that is.
Do you have an understanding of what additives kill the DPF vice the Catalyst (which are different between a Diesel and Petrol)? I think you are confusing the two.

The assumption that reducing 1% to .08 ASH is going to create longevity in a DPF is faulty. That’s ONE variable. Yet we know that’s not the case. You have to look at a variety of factors as mentioned previously.
 
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Let's not build strawmen here and attack members for the points they've made.

The reality is that for heavy diesels, which are fitted with DPF's, the standards were changed under CJ-4 to limit phosphorous to 1,200ppm, which had no limit previously. This limit was maintained in CK-4. This was deemed sufficient for DPF protection for these applications, which include OEM's like Cummins, Caterpillar, Detroit, Mack....etc.

Now, the Euro marques through ACEA chose to restrict phosphorous even further, in-line with gasoline catalyst protection limits of 800ppm.

Both approaches were taken with DPF protection in mind.

I also gave an example of a marque that shifted from the Euro lube to a CJ/CK lube with a DPF-equipped engine (FCA with the EcoDiesel).

Is it possible that the DPF's used by Mercedes are more sensitive to phosphorous poisoning than those used by Cummins/CAT? Sure. But we see the same argument on the automotive catalyst front (prior to GPF's) with phosphorous being limited by the API and ACEA, yet I've seen no evidence of higher rates of catalyst failure on full-SAPS oils like M1 0w-40, Castrol 0w-40...etc, so one has to question just how much oil consumption is necessary to produce the results that are apparently being responded to by these limitations.

I don't think there's anything wrong with questioningt the statistical significance of reducing phosphorous from 1,200ppm to 800ppm and what that really means over the life of the equipment. Obviously the big diesels aren't dropping DPF's at a rate that's high enough to warrant further revision, so there's that to consider.
We are talking here GL350.
Mercedes wants approved oils and oils with that limit for a reason. We can talk forever about whether 0.8% or 1% or 1.15% matters, fact is the owner will get north of 150k DPF warning, exactly when depending on maintenance. I know BMW's with M57 engines running north of 200k easily on DPF, I racked up 485k km on original DPF. Yet, I know some who had to do cleaning around 150k miles.
I own currently in a joint business with my brother 20+ commercial delivery vehicles, all small diesels in Europe, and only few were bought new. Some have DPF issues, some don't, some we maintain from the beginning. But whatever the issue is, we always use what the manufacturer wants us to use, which is mostly VW504.00/507.00. But eventually, DPF requires cleaning and we have business partner that does cleaning for us.
 
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Do you have an understanding of what additives kill the DPF vice the Catalyst (which are different between a Diesel and Petrol)? I think you are confusing the two.

The assumption that reducing 1% to .08 ASH is going to create longevity in a DPF is faulty. That’s ONE variable. Yet we know that’s not the case. You have to look at a variety of factors as mentioned previously.
SAPS is byproduct. I am not confusing anything. I am just saying that you should use whatever oil packs biggest punch, because there is no difference, apparently.

Yet we know that’s not the case

No, you "think" tat is not the case. DPF, as mentioned numerous times, will eventually gets clogged with ash. Other reasons for failure are out of manufacturers hands. Thermostat? Oil consumption? Accident? etc. that is another story. The manufacturer wants you to use low SAPS oil bcs. that extends the life of DPF. They want you to use Low-SAPS oils bcs. other issues too, but in this case, Low-SAPS oils like MB229.31, LL04 were introduced first time in 2004 with introduction of DPF in EU in personal vehicles. You can think whatever you want, but that is what happened and that is what is still happening.
But again, for you, Valvoline Racing, or Mobil1 0W50 Racing.
 
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Oh boy. You are mentioning Zinc in the same sentence of DPF longevity. Why?

Your inference that I’m going to run a 300v or DT40 spec oil in a DPF is absurd. You stretch to far mate.
SAPS is byproduct. I am not confusing anything. I am just saying that you should use whatever oil packs biggest punch, because there is no difference, apparently.



No, you "think" tat is not the case. DPF, as mentioned numerous times, will eventually gets clogged with ash. Other reasons for failure are out of manufacturers hands. Thermostat? Oil consumption? Accident? etc. that is another story. The manufacturer wants you to use low SAPS oil bcs. that extends the life of DPF. They want you to use Low-SAPS oils bcs. other issues too, but in this case, Low-SAPS oils like MB229.31, LL04 were introduced first time in 2004 with introduction of DPF in EU in personal vehicles. You can think whatever you want, but that is what happened and that is what is still happening.
But again, for you, Valvoline Racing, or Mobil1 0W50 Racing.

I don’t know you personally, but I always appreciate good discourse. If I met you, I’m probably sure we could sit for glass Beer.
 
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We are talking here GL350.
Mercedes wants approved oils and oils with that limit for a reason. We can talk forever about whether 0.8% or 1% or 1.15% matters, fact is the owner will get north of 150k DPF warning, exactly when depending on maintenance. I know BMW's with M57 engines running north of 200k easily on DPF, I racked up 485k km on original DPF. Yet, I know some who had to do cleaning around 150k miles.
I own currently in a joint business with my brother 20+ commercial delivery vehicles, all small diesels in Europe, and only few were bought new. Some have DPF issues, some don't, some we maintain from the beginning. But whatever the issue is, we always use what the manufacturer wants us to use, which is mostly VW504.00/507.00. But eventually, DPF requires cleaning and we have business partner that does cleaning for us.
I’m glad you appreciate we can talk about this forever. At least we can agree on that.

OE doesn’t always have our best interest in mind, but that is TOTALLY a different subject I do NOT want to talk about.
 
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Oh boy. You are mentioning Zinc in the same sentence of DPF longevity. Why?

Your inference that I’m going to run a 300v or DT40 spec oil in a DPF is absurd. You stretch to far mate.


I don’t know you personally, but I always appreciate good discourse. If I met you, I’m probably sure we could sit for glass Beer.
No, I am mentioning ZInc because you need the oil with the biggest punch. The highest possible ZInc level, Moly, Phosphorous, and highest possible SAPS, because when you sit in a car, it does not matter.
 

OVERKILL

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We are talking here GL350.
Yes, I know, I'm just saying that in the context of a discussion about DPF's, talking about heavy diesel approved oils designed for engines that also have DPF's isn't completely off the mark, it's at least somewhat germane to this discussion, particularly given that the OP is talking about running one of those lubes instead.
Mercedes wants approved oils and oils with that limit for a reason. We can talk forever about whether 0.8% or 1% or 1.15% matters, fact is the owner will get north of 150k DPF warning, exactly when depending on maintenance. I know BMW's with M57 engines running north of 200k easily on DPF, I racked up 485k km on original DPF. Yet, I know some who had to do cleaning around 150k miles.
Yes, Mercedes chose to base their approval on C3, which caps phosphorous at a lower level than CJ-4/CK-4. However, the OP is out of warranty and is clearly considering running an oil designed for a heavy diesel with DPF instead, that's the topic of the thread. So then the question becomes, how much impact will that really have on DPF longevity?
I own currently in a joint business with my brother 20+ commercial delivery vehicles, all small diesels in Europe, and only few were bought new. Some have DPF issues, some don't, some we maintain from the beginning. But whatever the issue is, we always use what the manufacturer wants us to use, which is mostly VW504.00/507.00. But eventually, DPF requires cleaning and we have business partner that does cleaning for us.
And that's fine. I'm running a Euro full-SAPS 0w-40 in my SRT, because I think it's a better oil, and has higher levels of AW additives than the "SN/GF-5" additive package used in the approved lubricant, and a Euro oil was originally the factory and service fill. Sometimes certifications and approvals change too, as you know, with BMW now back-spec'ing thinner oils for engines that originally called for an A3/B4 based lube. My M5 called for LL-01 back when M1 0w-40 and Castrol 0w-40 were approved, now neither of them are, would it be risky to continue using them, while the car is LONG out of warranty? Of course not.

And that brings us back to the EcoDiesel fiasco where they originally called for a Euro lube then switched to a CJ-4/CK-4. Clearly, they didn't think there was risk there. I ran Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 in ours when we had it.

So yes, Mercedes calls for a specific lube here. The question is whether there is legitimate risk in him using an HDEO designed for larger diesels here instead, which he's already stated that he's doing. A good friend if mine did the same thing with his Jetta, running Delvac 1 in it instead of the 502 lube.
 
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However, the OP is out of warranty and is clearly considering running an oil designed for a heavy diesel with DPF instead, that's the topic of the thread. So then the question becomes, how much impact will that really have on DPF longevity?
He is not. He got an extended 4/48k warranty for that EPA settlement.

And that brings us back to the EcoDiesel fiasco where they originally called for a Euro lube then switched to a CJ-4/CK-4. Clearly, they didn't think there was risk there. I ran Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 in ours when we had it.
FCA I think choose between two bad options. CJ-4/CK4 was a band-aid to an engineering problem. IMO, they cared about DPF longevity during the warranty and any oil will be fine, and that is all that mattered to them. CJ-4/CK was next best or least bad option in this case. Whether that decision reduced lifespan 20 or 100k, I think is not bothering FCA too much.
 

OVERKILL

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He is not. He got an extended 4/48k warranty for that EPA settlement.
The vehicle is from 2008 with 250,000Km on it:
I've had my oil analyzed on our 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee with about 250,000km. Until recently, it's been completely stock so for purposes of the wear on this oil change it's essentially a stock vehicle. We believe it's had the correct MB229.51 oil, though I couldn't be sure.

FCA I think choose between two bad options. CJ-4/CK4 was a band-aid to an engineering problem. IMO, they cared about DPF longevity during the warranty and any oil will be fine, and that is all that mattered to them. CJ-4/CK was next best or least bad option in this case. Whether that decision reduced lifespan 20 or 100k, I think is not bothering FCA too much.
Well, I'm not seeing CAT, Cummins, Detroit, Mack...etc concerned about it either ;) I think we have to consider that some of these limits might be a bit overly paranoid, hence my mention of the level of oil consumption necessary to make the difference from 800ppm to 1,200ppm matter.
 
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The vehicle is from 2008 with 250,000Km on it:



Well, I'm not seeing CAT, Cummins, Detroit, Mack...etc concerned about it either ;) I think we have to consider that some of these limits might be a bit overly paranoid, hence my mention of the level of oil consumption necessary to make the difference from 800ppm to 1,200ppm matter.
This is what started discussion:
Newbie here so risk of being flamed by comments. I've been maintaining my cars and motorcycles for over 30 years and have never had maintenance issues until my 2014 Mercedes GL350 Bluetec OM642 which I bought new. I maintain everything by the book including the little things like brake fluid. My cars and motorcycles run forever until this Mercedes Bluetec.
My timing chain stretched at 50k miles (had it replaced at 60k miles) using that Mercedes recommended 229.51 Mobil 1 ESP oil every 10k miles. (one extra change at 5k miles when the car was new) Now the car was recalled and the entire emissions system has been replaced: new DOC and DPF, new SCR & catalytic converter new NOx sensors and a 4yr 48k mile warranty on a bunch of stuff. (including turbo, timing chain and most of the top end) This is all part of the EPA settlement against Mercedes for cheating the emissions similar to VW/Audi/Porsche.
The Mercedes and BMW Diesel oil is API SN so a gasoline engine oil. (without the appropriate protection for soot...etc)
I started using Shell Rotella T6 at 80k miles with ACI CK-4 and ACEA E9 (also motorcycle JASO MA/MA2) and will do an oil analysis now. The car is beautiful and runs perfect again after the timing chain replacement which was done at 70k miles. Keep it or sell it? Run the Mercedes recommended 229.51/52 oil or an approved API CK4/ACEA E9 oil. I don't trust Mercedes. Worst ownership experience.

Now, when it comes to CAT, Mack etc. yes, they want different limits. So does MB commercial program, or MAN etc. But we have to take into consideration that there might be other reasons for higher limits. I personally do not know. But MB wants one set of limits for GL, another for Actros trucks.
 
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Do you have an understanding of what additives kill the DPF vice the Catalyst (which are different between a Diesel and Petrol)? I think you are confusing the two.

The assumption that reducing 1% to .08 ASH is going to create longevity in a DPF is faulty. That’s ONE variable. Yet we know that’s not the case. You have to look at a variety of factors as mentioned previously.
That's not the assumption. The claim is, all else being equal, a DPF packaged for .8% SA will reach max ash load sooner if the vehicle is run on an oil with 1% SA.

In real world, due to other variables*, it may not be relevant but that doesn't matter and frankly isn't the point.

*ex, CK-4 can be found with ash levels as low as .4% which is well below the max allowed by ACEA C3 and E9.
 
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Honestly, it’s Asinine to state a Modern Diesel rated oil (ACEA or API) causes DPF failure.

Dubious at best when few here know or understand why the Bluetec system has so negative (and rightly so) history.
I don’t but it either. Why is there a “Special Tec AA” oil from Liqui-Moly for Asian and American Diesels that is a diesel oil but Germans use an oil for gasoline engines. I’ve seen the result with the stretched chain. What happened to the good cars like my BMW E46 with 180k miles M54 2.5 liter and never an engine issue. (Timing chain is fine too)
Now with the emissions treatment system (back to the Mercedes BlueTec) being completely replaced I assume current components are used that are similar to other vehicle manufacturers for diesels.
We’ll all be driving electric soon as diesel and gasoline cars continue to get squeezed on emissions. (I appreciated the earlier EGR comment to reduce combustion temps to reduce NOx) What’s the emissions cost for replacing whole cars versus maintaining them and driving 200k+ miles? Mercedes would certainly rather sell a you a new car every few years but the regulators are also to blame setting limits that don’t necessarily make sense
 

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This is what started discussion:
OK, but that's not the OP, lol. The OP had the 2008 Jeep, same engine, also running Rotella, clearly no warranty.
Now, when it comes to CAT, Mack etc. yes, they want different limits. So does MB commercial program, or MAN etc. But we have to take into consideration that there might be other reasons for higher limits. I personally do not know. But MB wants one set of limits for GL, another for Actros trucks.
Sure, and, within the confines of a warranty, I always advise using the OEM approved lubricant. The OP of course is not in that situation, but the guy you quoted is.
 
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I don’t but it either. Why is there a “Special Tec AA” oil from Liqui-Moly for Asian and American Diesels that is a diesel oil but Germans use an oil for gasoline engines. I’ve seen the result with the stretched chain. What happened to the good cars like my BMW E46 with 180k miles M54 2.5 liter and never an engine issue. (Timing chain is fine too)
Now with the emissions treatment system (back to the Mercedes BlueTec) being completely replaced I assume current components are used that are similar to other vehicle manufacturers for diesels.
We’ll all be driving electric soon as diesel and gasoline cars continue to get squeezed on emissions. (I appreciated the earlier EGR comment to reduce combustion temps to reduce NOx) What’s the emissions cost for replacing whole cars versus maintaining them and driving 200k+ miles? Mercedes would certainly rather sell a you a new car every few years but the regulators are also to blame setting limits that don’t necessarily make sense
They share a lot of stuff. These are not performance components. For example on BMW X5 E70 35d active DEF heater is known to fail. Active tank? $2400. But heater component is $200. BMW sells only tank. But VW sells heater component for VW Touareg, and it is exactly same BOSCH part number.
DPF? Not sure, but $4k range for new.
NOx sensors around $1300.
Mixer (SCR converter) around $1500.
DEF valve and injector? not sure, but it is pricey too.

The SCR/DPF made diesels unpopular eventually even without VW scandal. DPF maybe! But complexity of SCR made them not so attractive.
 
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It’s funny how individuals don’t read the entire thread. Would help, but some are cut from different cloth……
That's not the assumption. The claim is, all else being equal, a DPF packaged for .8% SA will reach max ash load sooner if the vehicle is run on an oil with 1% SA.

In real world, due to other variables*, it may not be relevant but that doesn't matter and frankly isn't the point.

*ex, CK-4 can be found with ash levels as low as .4% which is well below the max allowed by ACEA C3 and E9.

Notice how I asked you and other posters to show how .08% ASH “increases” DPF longevity and all that you can say is something like this (refer to pg2 for exact quotes), “This is a Euro Oil thread, ask your question in the HDEO Forum,” and “Take it up with the Manufacturer’s.”

It was your and the other posters claim….Holy Smokes! Read! You don’t have a leg to stand on. Your assumption (dubious and incorrect) that ASH mitigation is linear as the percentage goes down in oil as it translates to DPF longevity. Come on. You can do better.
 
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It’s funny how individuals don’t read the entire thread. Would help, but some are cut from different cloth……


Notice how I asked you and other posters to show how .08% ASH “increases” DPF longevity and all that you can say is something like this (refer to pg2 for exact quotes), “This is a Euro Oil thread, ask your question in the HDEO Forum,” and “Take it up with the Manufacturer’s.”

It was your and the other posters claim….Holy Smokes! Read! You don’t have a leg to stand on. Your assumption (dubious and incorrect) that ASH mitigation is linear as the percentage goes down in oil as it translates to DPF longevity. Come on. You can do better.
I never said anything about it being linear.

I also never said .8% prolongs DPF life. I said 1% SA, compared to .8% SA will decrease DPF life. I never claimed but how much.
 
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I never said anything about it being linear.

I also never said .8% prolongs DPF life. I said 1% SA, compared to .8% SA will decrease DPF life. I never claimed but how much.
I said linear mate. This is probably the 4th or 5th time.

Correct. So answer the question instead of beating around the bush!
 
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