Mercedes OM642 3.0L diesel analysis 250,000km

[BMWTurboDzl]

I said linear mate. This is probably the 4th or 5th time.

Correct. So answer the question instead of beating around the bush!

Yes you did and you keep implying that's what I said as well as what I meant which is inaccurate.

Your claim is that straying from OE is not a big deal. The burden of proof is on you. Please enlighten us all with your wisdom.

 

[Sword_of_the_Spirit]

Yes you did and you keep implying that's what I said as well as what I meant which is inaccurate.

Your claim is that straying from OE is not a big deal. The burden of proof is on you. Please enlighten us all with your wisdom.

Round and Round we go….. Re-read page 1 and 2 of this very thread in its ENTIRETY. Then answer my question that was posed quite early on when the chance provides what proof you have that you used to correlate DPF longevity based solely on 1% vs .08% ASH.

If you don’t have it, just say, “I believe that by merely reducing ASH present in oil from 1% down to .08%, I assumed that the DPF would last longer. But I really do not know if that is true or not. Nor do I have proof beside what Manufacturers state on differing sides of the Pond.”

Pride is a horrible trait. I’ve been rebuffed many times and I’m appreciative of that. No shame in not knowing when presented facts as opposed to opines merely because a bottle or VOA or Manufacture imposes a specification.

I’m not going to reply any further to you unless you present something other than your opinion. It’s pretty clear in this thread already where you stand otherwise.

 

[loneryder]

Yes, I know, I'm just saying that in the context of a discussion about DPF's, talking about heavy diesel approved oils designed for engines that also have DPF's isn't completely off the mark, it's at least somewhat germane to this discussion, particularly given that the OP is talking about running one of those lubes instead.

Yes, Mercedes chose to base their approval on C3, which caps phosphorous at a lower level than CJ-4/CK-4. However, the OP is out of warranty and is clearly considering running an oil designed for a heavy diesel with DPF instead, that's the topic of the thread. So then the question becomes, how much impact will that really have on DPF longevity?

And that's fine. I'm running a Euro full-SAPS 0w-40 in my SRT, because I think it's a better oil, and has higher levels of AW additives than the "SN/GF-5" additive package used in the approved lubricant, and a Euro oil was originally the factory and service fill. Sometimes certifications and approvals change too, as you know, with BMW now back-spec'ing thinner oils for engines that originally called for an A3/B4 based lube. My M5 called for LL-01 back when M1 0w-40 and Castrol 0w-40 were approved, now neither of them are, would it be risky to continue using them, while the car is LONG out of warranty? Of course not.

And that brings us back to the EcoDiesel fiasco where they originally called for a Euro lube then switched to a CJ-4/CK-4. Clearly, they didn't think there was risk there. I ran Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 in ours when we had it.

So yes, Mercedes calls for a specific lube here. The question is whether there is legitimate risk in him using an HDEO designed for larger diesels here instead, which he's already stated that he's doing. A good friend if mine did the same thing with his Jetta, running Delvac 1 in it instead of the 502 lube.

I started using CK-4 5-40 oils in my 08 642. It seemed to like them. Never used any oil at 130k. The only time it did use oil was during 1 run of esp 5-30. I know it doesn't prove anything. I would also refer people to Stevens MB repair site and his hardcore insights from years of servicing MB diesels.

 

[kschachn]

Round and Round we go….. Re-read page 1 and 2 of this very thread in its ENTIRETY. Then answer my question that was posed quite early on when the chance provides what proof you have that you used to correlate DPF longevity based solely on 1% vs .08% ASH.

If you don’t have it, just say, “I believe that by merely reducing ASH present in oil from 1% down to .08%, I assumed that the DPF would last longer. But I really do not know if that is true or not. Nor do I have proof beside what Manufacturers state on differing sides of the Pond.”

Pride is a horrible trait. I’ve been rebuffed many times and I’m appreciative of that. No shame in not knowing when presented facts as opposed to opines merely because a bottle or VOA or Manufacture imposes a specification.

I’m not going to reply any further to you unless you present something other than your opinion. It’s pretty clear in this thread already where you stand otherwise.

0.08% ash? What oil has that value?

 

[OVERKILL]

I started using CK-4 5-40 oils in my 08 642. It seemed to like them. Never used any oil at 130k. The only time it did use oil was during 1 run of esp 5-30. I know it doesn't prove anything. I would also refer people to Stevens MB repair site and his hardcore insights from years of servicing MB diesels.

Yes, I think there is very little risk in using a CJ-4/CK-4 lubricant in an out of warranty euro diesel with a DPF, particularly in the same or similar grade (eg, 5w-40). Is it ideal? Perhaps not, but given that these oils are designed with DPF's in mind, and carry myriad approvals from other OEM's, it's difficult to frame what any actual risk is beyond the warranty period.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Round and Round we go….. Re-read page 1 and 2 of this very thread in its ENTIRETY. Then answer my question that was posed quite early on when the chance provides what proof you have that you used to correlate DPF longevity based solely on 1% vs .08% ASH.

If you don’t have it, just say, “I believe that by merely reducing ASH present in oil from 1% down to .08%, I assumed that the DPF would last longer. But I really do not know if that is true or not. Nor do I have proof beside what Manufacturers state on differing sides of the Pond.”

Pride is a horrible trait. I’ve been rebuffed many times and I’m appreciative of that. No shame in not knowing when presented facts as opposed to opines merely because a bottle or VOA or Manufacture imposes a specification.

I’m not going to reply any further to you unless you present something other than your opinion. It’s pretty clear in this thread already where you stand otherwise.

1 gram vs 800 mg. Are they the same?

 

[CleanSump]

How quickly will the DPF clog? I hear that thrown around a lot, but as usual, it’s not definitive.

I’m not trying to bust your chops just yet, so please take that as a compliment.

Here's your busted chops dude.
Plenty of documentation from sources to swallow.
Try google if you want more. LOL. The world does not agree with your unfounded opinion.
I was trolling down the street on day,
In the merry merry month of February.

https://dieselnet.com/tech/dpf_ash.php

Aravelli, K., Heibel, A., 2007. “Improved Lifetime Pressure Drop Management for Robust Cordierite (RC) Filters with Asymmetric Cell Technology (ACT)”, SAE Technical Paper 2007-01-0920, doi:10.4271/2007-01-0920

Bardasz, E., Antoon, F., Schiferl, E., Wang, J. et al., 2004. “The Impact of Lubricant and Fuel Derived Sulfur Species on Efficiency and Durability of Diesel NOx Adsorbers”, SAE Technical Paper 2004-01-3011, doi:10.4271/2004-01-3011

Bardasz, E., Cowling, S., Panesar, A., Durham, J. et al., 2005. “Effects of Lubricant Derived Chemistries on Performance of the Catalyzed Diesel Particulate Filters”, SAE Technical Paper 2005-01-2168, doi:10.4271/2005-01-2168

Bodek, K., Wong, V., 2007. “The Effects of Sulfated Ash, Phosphorus and Sulfur on Diesel Aftertreatment Systems - A Review”, SAE Technical Paper 2007-01-1922, doi:10.4271/2007-01-1922

Bunting, B., More, K., Lewis, S., and Toops, T., 2005. “Phosphorous Poisoning and Phosphorous Exhaust Chemistry with Diesel Oxidation Catalysts”, SAE Technical Paper 2005-01-1758, doi:10.4271/2005-01-1758

Gaiser, G., Mucha, P., 2004. “Prediction of Pressure Drop in Diesel Particulate Filters Considering Ash Deposit and Partial Regenerations”, SAE Technical Paper 2004-01-0158, doi:10.4271/2004-01-0158

Givens, W., Buck, W., Jackson, A., Kaldor, A. et al., 2003. “Lube Formulation Effects on Transfer of Elements to Exhaust After-Treatment System Components”, SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3109, doi:10.4271/2003-01-3109

Kimura, K., Lynskey, M., Corrigan, E., Hickman, D. et al., 2006. “Real World Study of Diesel Particulate Filter Ash Accumulation in Heavy-Duty Diesel Trucks”, SAE Technical Paper 2006-01-3257, doi:10.4271/2006-01-3257

Konstandopoulos, A.G., et al., 2000. “Fundamental Studies of Diesel Particulate Filters: Transient Loading, Regeneration, and Ageing”, SAE Technical Paper 2000-01-1016, doi:10.4271/2000-01-1016

Manni, M., Pedicillo, A., and Bazzano, F., 2006. “A Study of Lubricating Oil Impact on Diesel Particulate Filters by Means of Accelerated Engine Tests”, SAE Technical Paper 2006-01-3416, doi:10.4271/2006-01-3416

MECA, 2005. “Diesel Particulate Filter Maintenance: Current Practices and Experience”, Manufacturers of Emission Controls Association, Washington, D.C., June 2005, http://www.meca.org/galleries/default-file/Filter_Maintenance_White_Paper_605_final.pdf

Nemoto, S., Y. Kishi, 2004. “Impact of Oil-Derived Ash on Continuous Regeneration-Type Diesel Particulate Filter-JCAPII Oil WG Report”, SAE Technical Paper 2004-01-1887, doi:10.4271/2004-01-1887

Piesche, M., Bargende, M., Deuschle, T., Hitzler, G., Janoske, U., and Weitk, W., 2003. “Langzeitstabilität von Partikelfiltern in Dieselmotoren”, FVV Heft R521, Informationstagung Motoren, FVV Frankfurt

Sachdev, R., Wong, V., and Shahed, S., 1983. “Effect of Ash Accumulation on the Performance of Diesel Exhaust Particulate Traps”, SAE Technical Paper 830182, doi:10.4271/830182

Sappok, A., Santiago, M., Vianna, T., and Wong, V., 2009. “Characteristics and Effects of Ash Accumulation on Diesel Particulate Filter Performance: Rapidly Aged and Field Aged Results”, SAE Technical Paper 2009-01-1086, doi:10.4271/2009-01-1086

Sappok, A., Wong, V., 2010. “Ash Effects on Diesel Particulate Filter Pressure Drop Sensitivity to Soot and Implications for Regeneration Frequency and DPF Control”, SAE Int. J. Fuels Lubr., 3(1), 380-396, doi:10.4271/2010-01-0811

Sappok, A., Wong, V., and Murage, M., 2009a. “Characteristics and Effects of Lubricant Additive Chemistry and Exhaust Conditions on DPF Service Life and Vehicle Fuel Economy”, Diesel Engine Efficiency and Emissions Research Conference (DEER), US Department of Energy, Detroit, MI, https://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2009/session4/deer09_sappok.pdf

Singh, N., Rutland, C., Foster, D., Narayanaswamy, K. et al., 2009. “Investigation into Different DPF Regeneration Strategies Based on Fuel Economy Using Integrated System Simulation”, SAE Technical Paper 2009-01-1275, doi:10.4271/2009-01-1275

Sutton, M., et al., 2004. “Investigations Into Lubricant Blocking of Diesel Particulate Filters”, SAE Technical Paper 2004-01-3013, doi:10.4271/2004-01-3013

Viswanathan, S., Rakovec, N., and Foster, D., 2012. “Microscale Study of Ash Accumulation Process in DPF Walls using the Diesel Exhaust Filtration Analysis (DEFA) System”, ASME, ICEF2012-92104

 

[Sword_of_the_Spirit]

0.08% ash? What oil has that value?

Yep, you are right. Mixing figures and forgetting a “0.” 1%=.01 and what’s known as 0.8% (as pertains to 229.52 spec)=.008.

 

[CleanSump]

Yep, you are right. Mixing figures and forgetting a “0.” 1%=.01 and what’s known as 0.8% (as pertains to 229.52 spec)=.008.

Why no response to the expert documentation? Can you provide expert documentation that supports your opinion?

 

[Sword_of_the_Spirit]

Most of your sites don’t even list less than 1%. Most are at 1.6% or greater for studies. You’ve heard the term “Ashless” right? Well, it’s not really “Ashless” and those START at….let’s wait….1%.

I’ve read articles from 2007. I stated “linear” and whether the serviceable life of that DPF is extended by the mere 20% redux of Ash. That’s all. From what I’ve found in real world, there hasn’t been the slightest difference whatsoever. Through regen and the DPF catalyst lasting any longer then would otherwise be at .008 Ash. Have you ever heard of diminishing returns? I could draw the other examples like adding zincs or phosphorus or moly to an oil only to prevent ANY greater redux of wear. But I haven’t. At what point is reducing Ash content actually going to extend the life serviceable life of a DPF beyond other factors?

Any yes, I know Ash is captured and not burned off….

Why no response to the expert documentation? Can you provide expert documentation that supports your opinion?

 

[Sword_of_the_Spirit]

Here's your busted chops dude.
Plenty of documentation from sources to swallow.
Try google if you want more. LOL. The world does not agree with your unfounded opinion.
I was trolling down the street on day,
In the merry merry month of February.

https://dieselnet.com/tech/dpf_ash.php

Aravelli, K., Heibel, A., 2007. “Improved Lifetime Pressure Drop Management for Robust Cordierite (RC) Filters with Asymmetric Cell Technology (ACT)”, SAE Technical Paper 2007-01-0920, doi:10.4271/2007-01-0920

Bardasz, E., Antoon, F., Schiferl, E., Wang, J. et al., 2004. “The Impact of Lubricant and Fuel Derived Sulfur Species on Efficiency and Durability of Diesel NOx Adsorbers”, SAE Technical Paper 2004-01-3011, doi:10.4271/2004-01-3011

Bardasz, E., Cowling, S., Panesar, A., Durham, J. et al., 2005. “Effects of Lubricant Derived Chemistries on Performance of the Catalyzed Diesel Particulate Filters”, SAE Technical Paper 2005-01-2168, doi:10.4271/2005-01-2168

Bodek, K., Wong, V., 2007. “The Effects of Sulfated Ash, Phosphorus and Sulfur on Diesel Aftertreatment Systems - A Review”, SAE Technical Paper 2007-01-1922, doi:10.4271/2007-01-1922

Bunting, B., More, K., Lewis, S., and Toops, T., 2005. “Phosphorous Poisoning and Phosphorous Exhaust Chemistry with Diesel Oxidation Catalysts”, SAE Technical Paper 2005-01-1758, doi:10.4271/2005-01-1758

Gaiser, G., Mucha, P., 2004. “Prediction of Pressure Drop in Diesel Particulate Filters Considering Ash Deposit and Partial Regenerations”, SAE Technical Paper 2004-01-0158, doi:10.4271/2004-01-0158

Givens, W., Buck, W., Jackson, A., Kaldor, A. et al., 2003. “Lube Formulation Effects on Transfer of Elements to Exhaust After-Treatment System Components”, SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3109, doi:10.4271/2003-01-3109

Kimura, K., Lynskey, M., Corrigan, E., Hickman, D. et al., 2006. “Real World Study of Diesel Particulate Filter Ash Accumulation in Heavy-Duty Diesel Trucks”, SAE Technical Paper 2006-01-3257, doi:10.4271/2006-01-3257

Konstandopoulos, A.G., et al., 2000. “Fundamental Studies of Diesel Particulate Filters: Transient Loading, Regeneration, and Ageing”, SAE Technical Paper 2000-01-1016, doi:10.4271/2000-01-1016

Manni, M., Pedicillo, A., and Bazzano, F., 2006. “A Study of Lubricating Oil Impact on Diesel Particulate Filters by Means of Accelerated Engine Tests”, SAE Technical Paper 2006-01-3416, doi:10.4271/2006-01-3416

MECA, 2005. “Diesel Particulate Filter Maintenance: Current Practices and Experience”, Manufacturers of Emission Controls Association, Washington, D.C., June 2005, http://www.meca.org/galleries/default-file/Filter_Maintenance_White_Paper_605_final.pdf

Nemoto, S., Y. Kishi, 2004. “Impact of Oil-Derived Ash on Continuous Regeneration-Type Diesel Particulate Filter-JCAPII Oil WG Report”, SAE Technical Paper 2004-01-1887, doi:10.4271/2004-01-1887

Piesche, M., Bargende, M., Deuschle, T., Hitzler, G., Janoske, U., and Weitk, W., 2003. “Langzeitstabilität von Partikelfiltern in Dieselmotoren”, FVV Heft R521, Informationstagung Motoren, FVV Frankfurt

Sachdev, R., Wong, V., and Shahed, S., 1983. “Effect of Ash Accumulation on the Performance of Diesel Exhaust Particulate Traps”, SAE Technical Paper 830182, doi:10.4271/830182

Sappok, A., Santiago, M., Vianna, T., and Wong, V., 2009. “Characteristics and Effects of Ash Accumulation on Diesel Particulate Filter Performance: Rapidly Aged and Field Aged Results”, SAE Technical Paper 2009-01-1086, doi:10.4271/2009-01-1086

Sappok, A., Wong, V., 2010. “Ash Effects on Diesel Particulate Filter Pressure Drop Sensitivity to Soot and Implications for Regeneration Frequency and DPF Control”, SAE Int. J. Fuels Lubr., 3(1), 380-396, doi:10.4271/2010-01-0811

Sappok, A., Wong, V., and Murage, M., 2009a. “Characteristics and Effects of Lubricant Additive Chemistry and Exhaust Conditions on DPF Service Life and Vehicle Fuel Economy”, Diesel Engine Efficiency and Emissions Research Conference (DEER), US Department of Energy, Detroit, MI, https://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2009/session4/deer09_sappok.pdf

Singh, N., Rutland, C., Foster, D., Narayanaswamy, K. et al., 2009. “Investigation into Different DPF Regeneration Strategies Based on Fuel Economy Using Integrated System Simulation”, SAE Technical Paper 2009-01-1275, doi:10.4271/2009-01-1275

Sutton, M., et al., 2004. “Investigations Into Lubricant Blocking of Diesel Particulate Filters”, SAE Technical Paper 2004-01-3013, doi:10.4271/2004-01-3013

Viswanathan, S., Rakovec, N., and Foster, D., 2012. “Microscale Study of Ash Accumulation Process in DPF Walls using the Diesel Exhaust Filtration Analysis (DEFA) System”, ASME, ICEF2012-92104

I can concede that DPF cell count could be greater like that of a normal catalyst. However, I have not come across such info for later Bluetec’s and the early DPF only Merc’s.

Mind you, this thread is specifically talking about the OM642 and the latter DPF only from that of 2007-2009.

 

[CleanSump]

Most of your sites don’t even list less than 1%. Most are at 1.6% or greater for studies. You’ve heard the term “Ashless” right? Well, it’s not really “Ashless” and those START at….let’s wait….1%.

I’ve read articles from 2007. I stated “linear” and whether the serviceable life of that DPF is extended by the mere 20% redux of Ash. That’s all. From what I’ve found in real world, there hasn’t been the slightest difference whatsoever. Through regen and the DPF catalyst lasting any longer then would otherwise be at .008 Ash. Have you ever heard of diminishing returns? I could draw the other examples like adding zincs or phosphorus or moly to an oil only to prevent ANY greater redux of wear. But I haven’t. At what point is reducing Ash content actually going to extend the life serviceable life of a DPF beyond other factors?

Any yes, I know Ash is captured and not burned off….

Where is the documentation that supports your opinion?

 

[kschachn]

Most of your sites don’t even list less than 1%. Most are at 1.6% or greater for studies. You’ve heard the term “Ashless” right? Well, it’s not really “Ashless” and those START at….let’s wait….1%.

I’ve read articles from 2007. I stated “linear” and whether the serviceable life of that DPF is extended by the mere 20% redux of Ash. That’s all. From what I’ve found in real world, there hasn’t been the slightest difference whatsoever. Through regen and the DPF catalyst lasting any longer then would otherwise be at .008 Ash. Have you ever heard of diminishing returns? I could draw the other examples like adding zincs or phosphorus or moly to an oil only to prevent ANY greater redux of wear. But I haven’t. At what point is reducing Ash content actually going to extend the life serviceable life of a DPF beyond other factors?

Any yes, I know Ash is captured and not burned off….

I haven’t heard the term “ashless” used in any technical sense in regards to motor oil, only 2-stroke. Where have you seen that?

 

[loneryder]

Hey friends,
First time caller, long time listener....

I've had my oil analyzed on our 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee with about 250,000km. Until recently, it's been completely stock so for purposes of the wear on this oil change it's essentially a stock vehicle. We believe it's had the correct MB229.51 oil, though I couldn't be sure.

This sample was defintely from an 11,000km fill of the MB229.51.
Does everything look okay from your view? is there not enough data from the lab?

I've already switched to Rotella T6 0w40; had great results with it in our TDI ALH and Audi 2.7TT.

Edit: found this on Blauparts.com

Run any SK diesel 5-40 in your 642. Your engine will be protected better than with 229.51.

 

[gibbyOM642]

Thanks all for the information. I ended up changing out the Rotella T6 5w40 (4,000 miles on it) and went with the Valvoline XL-III 5W30.($30 for 5 qt jug) It meets the MB229.51/52 BMW LL-04 and is Recommended for ACEA C3. I also sent off the Rotella used oil sample to Blackstone labs for a TBN and oil analysis and will do the same when changing the Valvoline in 5,000 miles. I'm motivated to keep the car now and feel more confident that the stretched timing chain is not an indicator of further major engine damage. It was likely all of the short trips that killed that timing chain and I should have been changing the oil more frequently from the beginning.

 

[Sword_of_the_Spirit]

I haven’t heard the term “ashless” used in any technical sense in regards to motor oil, only 2-stroke. Where have you seen that?

For the two “white paper” articles I read on my own (not supplied by the other guy) that are dated from 2000 and 2007 list anything in their charts of 1% or less as “ashless.” Mind you, terminology does/has changed over the years. Obviously with as low as .006 now being called “low,” I’m positive that’s outdated.

Also, ashless 2-stroke allowed up to a certain minuscule percentage to still be called “ashless.”