Does the sulfated ash (SA) level really matter for intake-valve deposits (IVD)?

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Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Direct_Rejection
TGMO 0W16 (certified GF-6B as of today.)
I see they have updated the MSDS for Mobil Super 0W-16 as well, and it's still a GTL-based oil like TGMO 0W-16. As I said in the "Excited for API SP?" thread, none of the PAO-based Mobil 1's (AFE 0W-16, AFE 0W-20 (half-PAO-based), EP 0W-20, and AP 0W-20) have been updated to SP/GF-6.
Thanks for the response, Gokhan. I will stay tuned. smile
 
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If you want to reduce IVDs, use an oil with a low NOACK, use a catch can for any oil mist, and use an oil with a good bit of POE. Don't get caught up on the SAPS content.
 
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Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
If you want to reduce IVDs, use an oil with a low NOACK, use a catch can for any oil mist, and use an oil with a good bit of POE. Don't get caught up on the SAPS content.
Isn't it vice versa? Noack has little to no effect on carbon build up on the IVD.
 
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by painfx
I am still waiting for the Mobil 1 AFE 0W16 API SP. Wonder if it's going to change anything.
Camry has dual port/fuel injection; so, there are no intake-valve deposits to worry about (no different than for port injection).
*The ONLY kind of direct injection engine to have is the dual port variety combining DFI / PFI together .
 
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Originally Posted by ChrisD46
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by painfx
I am still waiting for the Mobil 1 AFE 0W16 API SP. Wonder if it's going to change anything.
Camry has dual port/fuel injection; so, there are no intake-valve deposits to worry about (no different than for port injection).
*The ONLY kind of direct injection engine to have is the dual port variety combining DFI / PFI together .
Yeah that is most ideal. Agree.
 
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What's the Sulfated Ash content of MOBIL1 AFE 0w-20 and Pennzoil Platinum Pure Plus 0w-20 and 5w-20 ? There's no mention of the S.A. on the Product Data Sheets of these synthetic oils . Thanks
 
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Gokhan

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Originally Posted by odie
What's the Sulfated Ash content of MOBIL1 AFE 0w-20 and Pennzoil Platinum Pure Plus 0w-20 and 5w-20 ? There's no mention of the S.A. on the Product Data Sheets of these synthetic oils . Thanks
Mobil 1 (all or most ILSAC grades) SA = 0.8%
 

Gokhan

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Originally Posted by painfx
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
If you want to reduce IVDs, use an oil with a low NOACK, use a catch can for any oil mist, and use an oil with a good bit of POE. Don't get caught up on the SAPS content.
Isn't it vice versa? Noack has little to no effect on carbon build up on the IVD.
The Noack has no direct effect on IVD. However, the base-oil quality and antioxidant content are the most important factors. A higher SA may even be beneficial because of a higher detergent content. base-oil quality ~ 1 / (CCS × Noack) So, if the CCS is similar, a lower Noack indicates a higher base-oil quality. However, if the CCS is different, you need to take that into account. Example: A Group II base oil and a Group III base oil may have the same Noack. Nevertheless, the Group III base oil has obviously a higher base-oil quality. If you also consider the CCS, you will see that the CCS is higher for the Group II base oil, resulting in a lower base-oil quality for it, despite having the same Noack. Therefore, you will have more IVD with the Group II base oil. You may have a Group III 5W-30 and a Group II 10W-30 with the same Noack, but the Group II 10W-30 will have a higher CCS (when compared at the same temperature), a lower base-oil quality, and more IVD.
 
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Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by ChrisD46
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by painfx
I am still waiting for the Mobil 1 AFE 0W16 API SP. Wonder if it's going to change anything.
Camry has dual port/fuel injection; so, there are no intake-valve deposits to worry about (no different than for port injection).
*The ONLY kind of direct injection engine to have is the dual port variety combining DFI / PFI together .
Yeah that is most ideal. Agree.
+2... Totally agree.
 
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I don't know the base oil composition of Valvoline Modern Engine, but they seem to emphasize additives as a key role in the formation of deposits. "Commenting on the launch of Valvoline Modern Engine Full Synthetic Motor Oil, Fran Lockwood - chief technology officer at Valvoline, said: "Valvoline Modern Engine captures key learnings from extensive research on how motor oil formulation - namely oil properties and additive composition - not only influence but can actually help prevent the formation of carbon deposits in the newest engine models.""
 

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For what it's worth, this 1987 study studied piston-ring and cylinder-liner wear as well as exhaust-valve deposits in an aftercooled turbocharged two-stroke-cycle diesel engine.
  • They found that the sulfated ash (SA) in the range of 1.0% to 1.85% had no significant effect on the exhaust-valve deposits.
They also found that the SAE 40 monograde gave the lowest cylinder-liner wear and scuffing, but the well-formulated 15W-40 multigrades also did well. You need to create a free account to read the article. Field performance of SAE 15W-40 in DDA 8V-92TA engines using current and new piston fire rings
 
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Thanks for sharing thumbsup It seems to be then that using the highest quality base oils and high levels of AO's is the best way to mitigate IVD's. Of course buying an engine with a PFI and DI system is ideal.
 
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I would add that the detergent and dispersants used could play a key role as well. This appears to be what Valvoline Modern Engine is about. Oil is going to make its way on to the intake valve. A possibly unique detergent/dispersant could help prevent that and I believe that's the mechanism at play with VME.
 
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https://patents.google.com/patent/US6866031 This was Mazda's thinking too. The last 1/3rd is the most interesting. "An additional approach for reducing the formation of carbon deposits on the intake valves 20 is to increase the intake valve temperature, at least temporarily, since, surprisingly, it was found that any carbon deposits possibly present are removed at temperatures above 380� C. To this end, the intake valve unit, which comprises, among other components, the intake valves 20 and the valve stem guide 28, is designed with means that hinder heat dissipation in such a way that increased surface temperatures of more than 380� C. develop at least in the area of the neck 68 of the intake valves 20 in at least one predetermined region of the load characteristic diagram 74 of the internal combustion engine. This is illustrated in FIG. 4. The intake valve temperature is above 380� C. in the shaded region 112 b of the characteristic diagram. At these temperatures, carbon deposits on the intake valves 20 are removed. This region 112 b of the characteristic diagram occurs, for example, at speeds over 3,000 rpm, and in that speed range. extends essentially to full load. Even if the internal combustion engine is not operated most of the time in the region 112 b during normal driving operation of a motor vehicle, nevertheless, carbon deposits that could adversely affect the operation of the internal combustion engine cannot build up, since their removal in the shaded region 112 b of the characteristic diagram occurs very quickly. For example, operation of the internal combustion engine in this region 112 b of the characteristic diagram for a period of, for example, 20 min., is sufficient to remove even a thick layer of carbon deposits. In other words, a routine expressway trip cleans the intake valves 20 sufficiently. In addition, this region of the characteristic diagram can be entered in the course of maintenance or repair work on the internal combustion engine in an automotive workshop."
 
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"To eliminate the problem of intake valve deposits that plague current direct gasoline injection engines, the engineers at Mazda determined that deposits are formed when intake valve temperatures fall below 400 degrees C. Measures were taken so that the intake valve would operate above this point to reduce deposit formation."
 
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Originally Posted by buster
"To eliminate the problem of intake valve deposits that plague current direct gasoline injection engines, the engineers at Mazda determined that deposits are formed when intake valve temperatures fall below 400 degrees C. Measures were taken so that the intake valve would operate above this point to reduce deposit formation."
Yea but at 3,000 rpm? My vehicles rarely reach that even running at our legal 70mph. Funny, all these years we've been running sodium filled exhaust valves to keep them cool.
 
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That study contains a good argument against spraying a cleaning solution into the intake while the engine is running: "There is the potential for small particles to break away from the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve and get into the catalytic converter. These hot particles may then cause secondary reactions and corresponding local damage of the catalytic converter. For example, a hole may be burned in the structure of the catalytic converter."
 
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I agree with you on this subject, my experience is that is mostly dependable on the engine design, pcv design and the egr.

Engines that have a lot of blowby/oilconsumption are somehow more sensitve to it. I guess because of low frictiom piston rings which create more blowby so more crancase fumes which go through the pcv and over the valves.

Best thing is to fit a racecar type postive ventilated oil catch can, you will be amazed how much oil will be in it with some engines.
 
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