Disturbing trends in education ...

[dnewton3]

I saw two news stories today. There is correlation, but I won't assume there is causation. What I suspect and what I can prove are completely different topics. I implore you to NOT bring illicit topics into this. It's perfectly fine to discuss general concerns, but it's not OK to blame specific people or entities.

Story #1
The nations educational "report card" is out. One measure for 13 year old students indicates that the math scores have dropped 9 points and reading comprehension is 4 points down since 2019; to levels as low as what was seen in the 1970s. Other ages did poorly as well. Pandemic learning clearly didn't go well.

Story #2
Also, in Indiana (and I suspect elsewhere as well), there is an ever-increasing gap in teacher employment. More are leaving than entering, and so the void in teacher employment widens. There are a variety of reasons why good potential teachers choose not to enter the profession, and those are probably very similar to why many are leaving before retirement.


Ironically, the US spends more and more on education every year. The money apparently isn't having its intended effect. Decade after decade, we spend more on education, and get less and less in return.

 

[buster]

It's pretty bad. I get to hear stories daily about what goes on in the school systems. It's a combination of many variables as most things are. Parenting is a big part of it too. NJ luckily has a very good public school system.

 

[bunnspecial]

This is somewhat anedotal, but I also do have numbers I've tracked for years to base this on:

I teach chemistry at a local community college. The majority of my students for the main class I teach are pre-nursing, hoping to enter the ADN/RN program at my school. This is my 3rd year at the school, but I've been teaching a similar class to a similar body of students(albeit at a big urban state school) since 2015.

This past year felt like the worst crop of students I had. Math literacy was at an elementary school level for a good chunk of my students. I've never had so many complaints about how questions I've used for years were "confusing" or "didn"t make sense" which to me pointed to poor skills in reading comprehension.

There is a 20 question pre-test/post-test we've been giving in this department for years now. I have seen a downward trend in both the pre and post scores in the last 3 years.

I wondered if it was isolated to me, but I talk to the nursing program faculty and staff all the time. They require a certain minimum score in math and language on a standardized entrance exam. As it currently stands, the fall nursing class is shaping up to be the smallest in 30+ years because scores were so low. They're offering a second chance exam sometime this month, which is something they have never done before.

Of course I can't paint with a broad brush, and my 15 student gen chem 2 class I had this past spring was by far and away the best I've had in my time here if not in my time teaching.

I could say that there's some selection bias at play particularly in college, and particularly when you look at a school like us. We do have a lot of students who come to us planning to use one of our transfer agreements(including the engineering pathway to our states' flagship university, which is a top 20 engineering school) and recognize the value and quality of education we provide. We have others that weren't able to get in anywhere else and end up here, or didn't even try because they knew they wouldn't be able to and hope through transfer agreements we're a way in to a school that they might not otherwise get. There's also the broader question of whether or not, with the job market as it is now, if students are electing to go to work right out of high school rather than go to college. Worse economies with higher unemployment tend to favor schools like us, as students can spend a few years here, not get piled in a ton of debt, and hopefully come out better prepared for the market on the other side.

Still, though, ignoring factors specific to our school, it's an anecdotal trend that faculty from all over the country at everything from other CCs like mine to Ivy Leagues in a wide range of disciplines have noticed. The best students are as good as they ever were, but pandemic learning seems to have widened the gulf between the top students and the mediocre students. The current freshman/first year class would have been high school freshmen in spring 2020 and sophomores fall of 2020. I'm afraid of what's to come in 5 years when we see students who weathered part of their elementary school years in virtual learning.

 

[demarpaint]

It's pretty bad.

And getting worse.

 

[thunderfog]

Teachers get zero support from administration on one side and parents on the other. They're on an island.

 

[ET16]

I taught at the college level for over 25 years. Higher ed is in crisis, too.
I sometimes say that teaching is a destroyed profession.
In higher ed over half the classes are taught by part-timers, often people with no health insurance or other benefits. The myth of the cushy teaching job is mostly just that: a myth.
The way back for teaching and learning is to make the profession attractive: pay people decently and give them the support to impart what they know.

 

[buster]

Teachers get zero support from administration on one side and parents on the other. They're on an island.

Some of the parents are lunatics. I thought about teaching at one time, but would never have the patience to deal with the parents texting me all day long.

 

[RooflessVW]

pay people decently and give them the support to impart what they know.

This is honestly the way back for the entire country.

 

[pbm]

I read a report a while back that Baltimore school children entering high school had an average reading proficiency of 3rd graders and NONE were proficient in math. Something is definitely wrong. We need to be HONEST about the causes of this but i doubt that will happen.

ET16: I agree that most classes are taught by part-timers, adjuncts, grad students etc...who don't get health benefits etc....but that hasn't stopped colleges and universities from constantly raising tuition and fees to the exorbitant level they are now at. Many of these schools have billions in endowments but cost keep going up, up, up. Why aren't these schools being asked to help with the 'student loan crisis' by using some endowment money toward it rather than further burdening the already struggling middle class taxpayers?

RooflessVW: Teachers in NYC are paid handsomely and yet I'm fairly certain the results are similar to Baltimore. Blaming the results on lack of pay isn't the answer. As I said earlier...we have to be HONEST about the causes.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I saw two news stories today. There is correlation, but I won't assume there is causation. What I suspect and what I can prove are completely different topics. I implore you to NOT bring illicit topics into this. It's perfectly fine to discuss general concerns, but it's not OK to blame specific people or entities.

Story #1
The nations educational "report card" is out. One measure for 13 year old students indicates that the math scores have dropped 9 points and reading comprehension is 4 points down since 2019; to levels as low as what was seen in the 1970s. Other ages did poorly as well. Pandemic learning clearly didn't go well.

Story #2
Also, in Indiana (and I suspect elsewhere as well), there is an ever-increasing gap in teacher employment. More are leaving than entering, and so the void in teacher employment widens. There are a variety of reasons why good potential teachers choose not to enter the profession, and those are probably very similar to why many are leaving before retirement.


Ironically, the US spends more and more on education every year. The money apparently isn't having its intended effect. Decade after decade, we spend more on education, and get less and less in return.

So a 9 and 4 point drop puts us at 1970's levels? How many points are in this scale? 20? 50? 100? I'd say that's not such a big deal all things considered.

 

[PWMDMD]

I work with children under stressful conditions for a living and here are my observations from the last 15 years:

1. Parenting is dead. It ranges from parents who now come in and say things like "we believe in gentle parenting" or "we don't say no" to parents who say things like he/she doesn't brush their teeth (they're 3 yo) because, "They won't let me and I don't want to traumatize them". Parents who make excuses why their 15 year old "can't" brush their teeth but are simultaneously shocked little Johnny has 12 cavities. Parents do not want to parent anymore - they want to be their kids friends.

2. Many kids can't socialize anymore. Many can't have a simple conversation. Many have absolutely no manners. This goes back to point #1. The 16 year old sits there grunting and they parent is on their phone not paying any attention and not correcting their child. One of my favorites, "Hey Ben, how's it going?" Ben is 17 and his answer is, "What? I don't know." What? If you don't know who in the heck does? They will usually look at their mother to answer the question.

3. Kids have no coping skills because their parents remove all obstacles from their lives. I'd estimate 75% of the teens I see have "anxiety and depression" and are being medicated for it. Parents use these diagnoses as a weird badge of honor and the basis for the excuse of why their child "can't" comply with any request. My hospital OR schedule for general anesthesia is booked out to February of 2024 right now because kids are coming in looking like a bomb went off in their mouths by 3 yo and mom/dad can't "traumatize" little Jenny by brushing their teeth and denying them apple juice all day.

4. With the above in mind, I do not find it difficult to imagine how these kids perform in school. I can only imagine the crap teachers have to put up with from both student and parents.

This has a global effect on the child and it affects every aspect of their lives but it is not the fault of these kids and it is entirely the fault of my generation of parents. I have three well-adjusted teens who can speak to people and cope and do well in life and have friends but those kids were "forged" for lack of a better term and that didn't just happen.

 

[RooflessVW]

Blaming the results on lack of pay isn't the answer.

You don't think that the disappearing middle class has anything to do with home life and educational results?

 

[buster]

I work with children under stressful conditions for a living and here are my observations from the last 15 years:

1. Parenting is dead. It ranges from parents who now come in and say things like "we believe in gentle parenting" or "we don't say no" to parents who say things like he/she doesn't brush their teeth (they're 3 yo) because, "They won't let me and I don't want to traumatize them". Parents who make excuses why their 15 year old "can't" brush their teeth but are simultaneously shocked little Johnny has 12 cavities. Parents do not want to parent anymore - they want to be their kids friends.

2. Many kids can't socialize anymore. Many can't have a simple conversation. Many have absolutely no manners. This goes back to point #1. The 16 year old sits there grunting and they parent is on their phone not paying any attention and not correcting their child. One of my favorites, "Hey Ben, how's it going?" Ben is 17 and his answer is, "What? I don't know." What? If you don't know who in the heck does? They will usually look at their mother to answer the question.

3. Kids have no coping skills because their parents remove all obstacles from their lives. I'd estimate 75% of the teens I see have "anxiety and depression" and are being medicated for it. Parents use these diagnoses as a weird badge of honor and the basis for the excuse of why their child "can't" comply with any request. My hospital OR schedule for general anesthesia is booked out to February of 2024 right now because kids are coming in looking like a bomb went off in their mouths by 3 yo and mom/dad can't "traumatize" little Jenny by brushing their teeth and denying them apple juice all day.

4. With the above in mind, I do not find it difficult to imagine how these kids perform in school. I can only imagine the crap teachers have to put up with from both student and parents.

This has a global effect on the child and it affects every aspect of their lives but it is not the fault of these kids and it is entirely the fault of my generation of parents. I have three well-adjusted teens who can speak to people and cope and do well in life and have friends but those kids were "forged" for lack of a better term and that didn't just happen.

Good observations. I think you're right.

 

[PWMDMD]

I taught at the college level for over 25 years. Higher ed is in crisis, too.
I sometimes say that teaching is a destroyed profession.
In higher ed over half the classes are taught by part-timers, often people with no health insurance or other benefits. The myth of the cushy teaching job is mostly just that: a myth.
The way back for teaching and learning is to make the profession attractive: pay people decently and give them the support to impart what they know.

I'm enrolled in UMass Amherst's online MBA. It's a lot of doctors, lawyers, engineers, nurses, and other professionals in their mid 30's and up. Several faculty have commented they much prefer to teach the on-line MBA compared to the FT students who are mostly right out of college because in spite of most of us having FT jobs we're MUCH better students. The online courses run along side the in-person courses and we universally do better on exams. Again, most already have doctoral degrees and so there is probably a bit of selection bias here too but several faculty have made the comment.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

It's not the educational system that's to blame.

It's the entire society in general. Most people today don't want to look back in time and admit that things were better 30-40 years ago with regard to ethics, morals, expectations of each other, etc.

Been to a major retailer in the last year? Yes? Did you take a minute and observe the behavior, language, clothing, attitude and other attributes of EVERYONE in the store, including employees? Compare that to 1987.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

I work with children under stressful conditions for a living and here are my observations from the last 15 years:

1. Parenting is dead. It ranges from parents who now come in and say things like "we believe in gentle parenting" or "we don't say no" to parents who say things like he/she doesn't brush their teeth (they're 3 yo) because, "They won't let me and I don't want to traumatize them". Parents who make excuses why their 15 year old "can't" brush their teeth but are simultaneously shocked little Johnny has 12 cavities. Parents do not want to parent anymore - they want to be their kids friends.

2. Many kids can't socialize anymore. Many can't have a simple conversation. Many have absolutely no manners. This goes back to point #1. The 16 year old sits there grunting and they parent is on their phone not paying any attention and not correcting their child. One of my favorites, "Hey Ben, how's it going?" Ben is 17 and his answer is, "What? I don't know." What? If you don't know who in the heck does? They will usually look at their mother to answer the question.

3. Kids have no coping skills because their parents remove all obstacles from their lives. I'd estimate 75% of the teens I see have "anxiety and depression" and are being medicated for it. Parents use these diagnoses as a weird badge of honor and the basis for the excuse of why their child "can't" comply with any request. My hospital OR schedule for general anesthesia is booked out to February of 2024 right now because kids are coming in looking like a bomb went off in their mouths by 3 yo and mom/dad can't "traumatize" little Jenny by brushing their teeth and denying them apple juice all day.

4. With the above in mind, I do not find it difficult to imagine how these kids perform in school. I can only imagine the crap teachers have to put up with from both student and parents.

This has a global effect on the child and it affects every aspect of their lives but it is not the fault of these kids and it is entirely the fault of my generation of parents. I have three well-adjusted teens who can speak to people and cope and do well in life and have friends but those kids were "forged" for lack of a better term and that didn't just happen.

THIS THIS THIS


It's not just "many kids" who can't carry on a conversation. It's 20-30-40 and some 50 year olds. MOST are "highly educated" but cannot orate 2 sentences without using Like, and uhhhhm, you know more than once across those two sentences. And what they DO SAY generally makes absolutely no sense and I'm usually left sitting there going W T H did you just say???

 

[97prizm]

I saw two news stories today. There is correlation, but I won't assume there is causation. What I suspect and what I can prove are completely different topics. I implore you to NOT bring illicit topics into this. It's perfectly fine to discuss general concerns, but it's not OK to blame specific people or entities.

Story #1
The nations educational "report card" is out. One measure for 13 year old students indicates that the math scores have dropped 9 points and reading comprehension is 4 points down since 2019; to levels as low as what was seen in the 1970s. Other ages did poorly as well. Pandemic learning clearly didn't go well.

Story #2
Also, in Indiana (and I suspect elsewhere as well), there is an ever-increasing gap in teacher employment. More are leaving than entering, and so the void in teacher employment widens. There are a variety of reasons why good potential teachers choose not to enter the profession, and those are probably very similar to why many are leaving before retirement.


Ironically, the US spends more and more on education every year. The money apparently isn't having its intended effect. Decade after decade, we spend more on education, and get less and less in return.

Will the more teachers leaving than entering the job market balance things out? A few years ago there were way more people applying and training to be teachers than spots available.

 

[PWMDMD]

THIS THIS THIS


It's not just "many kids" who can't carry on a conversation. It's 20-30-40 and some 50 year olds. MOST are "highly educated" but cannot orate 2 sentences without using Like, and uhhhhm, you know more than once across those two sentences. And what they DO SAY generally makes absolutely no sense and I'm usually left sitting there going W T H did you just say???

I agree. Kid's expectations for life and ultimately what they do is based on what they see everyday in their lives. If they grow up with parents who don't have their crap together then they grow up thinking that's normal.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

Who in their right mind would spend $100k on a college education to be a teacher and make $47,000 a year and be stuck in a block walled baby sitting arena?

 

[pbm]

So a 9 and 4 point drop puts us at 1970's levels? How many points are in this scale? 20? 50? 100? I'd say that's not such a big deal all things considered.

I'd say it is a 'big deal' because our global competition has grown immensely since the 1970's. Remember that GM, Ford and Chrysler had no real competition back then....now they can barely compete.