Disturbing trends in education ...

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

[QUOTE="I Usually those ones are the Art/English teachers.
[/QUOTE]

No, they're not.

My daughter is in her last year at a college that I'm sure 99.9% of you have never heard of, it's a state school in AL and known for Nursing (highly rated/respected), RT/Kinesiology (OT/PT prep tracks), education and music.

A simple, 4-year degree at this school will cost the most frugal family $100k at bare minimum (yes, this includes housing and food). It will also include SJW indoctrination classes that have nothing to do with life skills and the degree being earned....


The average K-5 starting salary in the southeast is about $45k at best. You're going to be in a classroom of 25-30 kids, most sent there from broken homes, parents who don't care and some kids who don't even live in a household with either of their birth parent.

Someone can make more by showing up to work and putting effort into a hospitality career and not have $100k invested in education.

 

[ET16]

I think part of the problem is that the tenure system does not reward educational excellence or punish incompetence.

My last year of university was '78/79. My minor was geography. I took a course in Political Geography that spanned both semesters.

The first prof (Dr F) was quite good. He seemed to know his stuff, and I learned a lot.

The second prof (Dr M) was abysmal - rude, and not knowledgable about the subject matter.

A third prof, teaching another geography course (Geomorphology), told me that the first prof had been hired on a contractor basis, and was paid $13K with no benefits.

The 2nd prof was tenured, and was paid $40K plus generous benefits.

The 3rd prof told me that he himself was paid $18K. I considered him a very good teacher. I don't remember whether or not he has his doctorate at that time.

The first prof's $13K wage worked out to about $6.50/hour, based on a 40-hour week.

That ($6.50/hour) was only a bit over 2x the $2.95/hour I was earning working part-time in a warehouse, which seemed really low for a acknowledge prof with a doctorate.

And the $20/hour for the bad prof? I felt I was doing a lot more useful work than he was, for 1/7th the hourly wage.

Your statement about tenure might have been right during the period you discuss, but here are the latest statistics:

"About 71 percent of faculty in the United State are non-tenure-track faculty, including research, teaching, professional, and clinical faculty; 20 percent are full-time and 51 percent are part-time, according to data from the U.S. Department of Education's Integrated Postsecondary Education Data System (IPEDS, 2021)."

 

[RooflessVW]

No and I can only guess based on your response that I’ve become a victim of the media to think otherwise

In a word, yes.

I have 3 children in school and the media outrage is completely manufactured.

 

[SC Maintenance]

The problem is that schools no longer teach reading, writing and 'rithmetic along with history, civics etc. They primarily groom and indoctrinate.

If we want the best results we have to go back to the best practices, the 3 R's already mentioned and the 3 P's, Pledging, Praying and Paddling.

They still try here. My kids did well. Both Graduated in 2020. Both almost done college.

Education is what you make of it.

It starts at home - if taught that education is valuable and their teachers are resources to help them succeed, they will do well. If parents treat school as daycare and free lunch and kids treat teachers like crap, they deserve the education they get.

 

[ripcord]

Some very good points have been made so far. One that hasn't been brought up is the state of educator training.

Schools of education have become so politicized with far fringe ideology that they actively work to exclude normal people from entering the field. They spend an inordinate amount of time teaching future teachers to be little activists instead of qualified teachers. What passes for pedagogy is polluted with a lot of political activism.

 

[dkryan]

Teachers get zero support from administration on one side and parents on the other. They're on an island.

THIS!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[RooflessVW]

Some very good points have been made so far. One that hasn't been brought up is the state of educator training.

Schools of education have become so politicized with far fringe ideology that they actively work to exclude normal people from entering the field. They spend an inordinate amount of time teaching future teachers to be little activists instead of qualified teachers. What passes for pedagogy is polluted with a lot of political activism.

Evidence?

 

[Rmay635703]

Ironically, the US spends more and more on education every year. The money apparently isn't having its intended effect. Decade after decade, we spend more on education, and get less and less in return.

The ironic thing is the affects of school vouchers which can double or triple money spent (even when we are told it doesn’t)

And the spread between high end spending and low end, some areas spend less per student than Cuba, others make it rain like it’s Harvard wasting money on sports, sports complex’s, unnecessary office construction, etc.

Like all things we have bad actors that exxaberbate inequality then come and complain about school spending because they OKd another billion dollar sports complex in a referendum.

If everyone suffered just a little so things were more evenly funded with the right resources in the right areas everyone would benefit long term.

The poorest Americans also tend to be parents, that is how it’s always been but things have gotten worse in the last 23 years or so.

 

[loneryder]

They haven’t taught critical thinking in the public schools sine the 80’s. Repeat what the teacher said and get an A. Critical thinking is the one thing I learned in college that has helped me navigate thru life.

 

[tbm5690]

It starts at home

These four words sum it up. Parents are either physically absent or, more commonly, emotionally and mentally absent in the home caught up in the screen in their pocket. Kids are being sent into schools without having the equipping that they should've had in the home. My 3 year old will be home schooled...I realize this is not the solution for everyone and each case is different but I have full confidence in my wife's ability to give our child a better education than what he would receive in the system, sadly.

 

[Pew]

The ironic thing is the affects of school vouchers which can double or triple money spent (even when we are told it doesn’t)

And the spread between high end spending and low end, some areas spend less per student than Cuba, others make it rain like it’s Harvard wasting money on sports, sports complex’s, unnecessary office construction, etc.

Like all things we have bad actors that exxaberbate inequality then come and complain about school spending because they OKd another billion dollar sports complex in a referendum

Exactly, just this past decade Texas A&M had a $485M expansion, Northwestern University here just approved a $800M stadium, Notre Dame spent 400M, ASU spent $400M on renovations.....and yet we wonder why a college education cost nearly six figures when money is spent on useless stuff like a jumbotron, in a stadium, watching two grown men in spandex chase a ball.

 

[pbm]

You don't think that the disappearing middle class has anything to do with home life and educational results?

I never said that... but lack of 2 parents in the household, lack of discipline in school (laws which protect unruly kids from being expelled etc...), lack of uniform clothing standards (kids go to school to show off their 'Air Jordans' and laugh at those who don't have them etc...a culture that values athletics over education, bullying that school districts seem to ignore etc...etc...etc...are far more problematic IMO.

I worked in the South Bronx and Harlem NYC (poor neighborhoods) for most of my nearly 40 year career and it was common to have Chinese Restaurants (often with bullet proof glass partitions). They were family run operations and often the parents spoke little to no English but the children would be studying their school lessons between customers. Many of these kids got into the elite 'specialized high schools' like Stuyvesant in Manhattan , Bronx Science* in the Bronx, Brooklyn Tech in Brooklyn etc....and went on to prestigious (often Ivy League ) schools. They didn't have a lot of money but they had family help (not government help) and a desire to learn and get ahead.
Ironically, NYC is debating making admission to these prestigious schools less difficult because there aren't enough 'minorities' gaining admission on merit. (Asians aren't considered minorities for 'spoils' because of their academic success.)

* Bronx HS of Science has more Nobel Prize winning alumni than any other secondary school in the world...Do you think such excellence will continue if standards are lowered??

Bronx High School of Science - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[wings&wheels]

In a word, yes.

I have 3 children in school and the media outrage is completely manufactured.

Consider yourself somewhat lucky in your experience, I am truly happy for you, and I expect some of that is due to where you are. Up here in the toney suburbs of Boston, some of what is being taught in the public schools is troubling, and downright maddening and certainly consumes time better spent on teaching actual, useable life skills. I do agree that the media 'manufacture' somewhat and foster outrage.

We private schooled, not for ideological reasons, we just happen to live near several excellent private schools. That said, friends have children in the public schools as are some of our Daughter's friends. Also, I have sat on the Town Finance Committee for 13+ years and have had deep visibility to the school's curriculum, spending, initiatives, etc. There is, at least here and in other local systems I have seen, a significant ideological slant in the curricula that is well beyond exploring alternative viewpoints, etc. Going into specifics would get this thread locked, but there are ideologies being pushed, again at least here. What is also troubling, is, at least behind the scenes, the attitude of some educators that they 'own' our children and the dismissing of parents' mostly reasonable concerns about curricula.

The one nugget of all this? Be involved in your children's education.

 

[rekit]

After 24 yrs the plant I worked at closed (Paper Products), and at age 50 went to Community College for the first time. I would guess less than 10% of the kids there were prepared every day for the class-homework done, on time, ready to learn. Some of the teachers were a joke. Physics teacher told us not to buy books, we were NOT going to need them. You show up, you will pass. By show up he meant sign the sign up sheet and leave. My Chemistry teacher had some issue and stormed in one day. One second after the 600pm start time she said all homework on your desk. She ran around the room and if you had done anything at all you got an E. She than told us if you got an E you were exempt from the Final. I spent 4 hours the day before on homework and was sure most of the others did not, but was glad I did. She would make me teach class sometimes, (I never took chem before, and I learned she had not either.) Never did figure out what blew her up that day. I made the Deans List lol. Got hired at the Refinery most of these "teachers" worked at. Now retired after 14 years there.

 

[thunderfog]

Parents are either physically absent or, more commonly, emotionally and mentally absent in the home caught up in the screen in their pocket.

In the past, kids emulated their parents. Today, parents emulate their kids.

 

[SC Maintenance]

(laws which protect unruly kids from being expelled etc...)

^^ This. Kid assaulted a female teacher here. Judge sent him back because he has a "right" to be educated.

 

[I<3oil]

No, they're not.

My daughter is in her last year at a college that I'm sure 99.9% of you have never heard of, it's a state school in AL and known for Nursing (highly rated/respected), RT/Kinesiology (OT/PT prep tracks), education and music.

A simple, 4-year degree at this school will cost the most frugal family $100k at bare minimum (yes, this includes housing and food). It will also include SJW indoctrination classes that have nothing to do with life skills and the degree being earned....


The average K-5 starting salary in the southeast is about $45k at best. You're going to be in a classroom of 25-30 kids, most sent there from broken homes, parents who don't care and some kids who don't even live in a household with either of their birth parent.

Someone can make more by showing up to work and putting effort into a hospitality career and not have $100k invested in education.

As someone who's a teacher and works in education, yes, most of those teachers acquiring huge amounts of debt and going into teaching are in the Art/English fields. (which is what I was referring to, I don't know what the other part of your post is drunkenly babbling about )

 

[bunnspecial]

Your statement about tenure might have been right during the period you discuss, but here are the latest statistics:

"About 71 percent of faculty in the United State are non-tenure-track faculty, including research, teaching, professional, and clinical faculty; 20 percent are full-time and 51 percent are part-time, according to data from the U.S. Department of Education's Integrated Postsecondary Education Data System (IPEDS, 2021)."

NTT is a big problem.

There are upsides and downsides to the tenure system. I am (relatively) young and am constantly trying to improve the classroom experience for my students but am sometimes hesitant to try anything too radical. I am looking forward to tenure to, among other things, have the freedom to try pedagogy both my creation and things tried elsewhere without feeling like I'm under a microscope if the outcome isn't exactly what I'd hoped. Hopefully that will come in a year.

Tenure can lead some to stagnation, doing the bare minimum, or a reluctance to change anything because that's how they've always done it. We do have motivation to keep up constant improvement to a degree because promotion is separate from tenure and stagnant teaching will not land you there. I have three promotion steps(each with about a 10% raise) to full professor and about 16 years.

Adjunct/PT labor is pretty darn exploitive, and there's no real way around it. Most of the adjuncts in my department have full time employment elsewhere or otherwise they'd not be able to survive on what we pay. FT faculty at my school are required to teach 30 contact hours a year. Adjuncts(and FT faculty in overload) are paid $778 per contact hour. Ajuncts can't teach more than 14 hours in a semester, but if they could teach 15 a semester/30 a year, that would translate to $23,000 a year. That's robbery even in a LCOL area(I'd say we're on the lower end, but certainly not the cheapest area to live). Our lowest paid FT faculty make around $45K a year with opportunities to make over and above that. A lot of our more senior ones are easily in the $90K+ range. FT faculty do have more responsibilities and expectations than full time, but not 2-4x as much as part time. That's not to mention that PT don't get health insurance or any other benefits.

A lot of part time faculty who don't have FT jobs end up stretching themselves out across 2-4 different schools in the area. That lets them sort of make ends meet(and to be fair we are by far the lowest paying in the area), but it's not a good situation for them or for the students.

Bear in mind too in all of this that we're talking about people with masters or doctorate level educations. High school graduates working at McDonalds can make more.

Even more, for FT faculty, most of us at least in STEM could easily double our salaries overnight if we went into industry. There are plenty of opportunities around here. Most of us stay in teaching because we love it and feel a calling to do it, not for the money.

 

[pbm]

Seems like every kid has ADHD these days *** LOL.

The drug companies are big political donors...

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

It's not the educational system that's to blame.

It's the entire society in general. Most people today don't want to look back in time and admit that things were better 30-40 years ago with regard to ethics, morals, expectations of each other, etc.

Been to a major retailer in the last year? Yes? Did you take a minute and observe the behavior, language, clothing, attitude and other attributes of EVERYONE in the store, including employees? Compare that to 1987.

Oh come on now. Let's not put on the rose colored glasses and think the 1980's was all grand. There was a massive movement of jobs from the NE to the SE US which were then offshored. Divorce rates increased as baby boomer mothers realized they didn't need to stay in bad marriages like their WW2 era mothers. Latchkey kids coming home from school to an empty house, cocaine/crack epidemics., AIDS. The number and types of debt financing products exploded which allowed an exponential increase in debt financed consumption.