Difference between M1 0w30 afe and 0w30 esp?

[edyvw]

The real strange thing is that I have not even been making any controversial statements (as I sometimes do ) but only stating the fact that all API-SP-certified oils have reduced calcium & added magnesium as far as from what we have seen in VOAs and UOAs to date.

But some turned this simple fact inside out and into a matter of pride for European oils not previously API-SP-certified and won't stop trying to prove 2 + 2 = 3, and they will keep saying that no, a European oil can be all-calcium/high-calcium even if it is API-SP-certified because—it is European and thus invincible.

By the way, most new LSPI-certified Euro oils also carry API-SP approval; so, it is a moot issue whether European-OEM LSPI approval alone without API-SP approval could/would/should change the oil composition.

I am looking forward to seeing VOAs/UOAs from European API-SP-rated oils that will show high calcium/all calcium, as some are claiming that there could/would/should be such oils. I don't know how the additive companies will succeed in doing it, but apparently they can because they are formulating additive packages for European oils as opposed to American/Japanese oils. OK, that's enough sarcasm.

Of course you did. From the start of this discussion, you are speculating about approvals although people gave you evidence.
So you started to question if MB test was good enough, did they give them a grace period, and other stuff that is pretty much absolute nonsense. MB introduced LSPI test in 2020. That is it.
I posted pds from 2016 that is same as the current API SP, just for you to answer: well Mobil1 pds is garbage. Sure, tell us more! Please, we beg for that garbage evidence.

 

[Gokhan]

I know. It has MB229.52, which means it has LSPI test.
That is the fact. I understand if you cannot comprehend this, but again: MB229.52=LSPI test.

If that oil actually managed to pass an LSPI test with 1,700-ppm Ca and 800-ppm P, that must have been one lousy LSPI test that almost any oil would pass.

In any case, my point is that the API-SP version will have reduced Ca and added Mg. We will see.

 

[edyvw]

If that oil actually managed to pass an LSPI test with 1,700-ppm Ca and 800-ppm P, that must have been one lousy LSPI test that almost any oil would pass.

In any case, my point is that the API-SP version will have reduced Ca and added Mg. We will see.

Again, you are speculating. It is MB test, and all MB tests are FAR, FAR more stringent than API tests.
That point you are referring was never an issue. 1700ppm is reduced from, let's say 3200.

 

[Gokhan]

Of course you did. From the start of this discussion, you are speculating about approvals although people gave you evidence.
So you started to question if MB test was good enough, did they give them a grace period, and other stuff that is pretty much absolute nonsense. MB introduced LSPI test in 2020. That is it.
I posted pds from 2016 that is same as the current API SP, just for you to answer: well Mobil1 pds is garbage. Sure, tell us more! Please, we beg for that garbage evidence.

Mobil 1 PDSs and websites are often erroneous. So are Pennzoil PDSs and websites.

We could go into the weeds to discuss specs and approvals—at the end, it becomes a silly discussion. That's because specs and approvals are not science.

The science is that LSPI-approved oils have reduced calcium and added magnesium to make up for the reduced calcium. You have been disputing this simple fact. If, during the early days of approvals, some legacy all-calcium oils managed to pass some OEM LSPI test with higher calcium amounts, let that be. Nevertheless, my point is that when LSPI approvals settle in and they do global approvals instead of one OEM-specific approval of one legacy all-calcium formulation, you will see that they will all have reduced-calcium and added-magnesium additive packages. Just wait and see the VOAs/UOAs of your API-SP-rated European oils.

 

[Gokhan]

Again, you are speculating. It is MB test, and all MB tests are FAR, FAR more stringent than API tests.
That point you are referring was never an issue. 1700ppm is reduced from, let's say 3200.

It is a mid-SAPS oil. You can never have 3,200-ppm calcium in a mid-SAPS oil—LSPI or not. Perhaps you can see 3,200-ppm calcium in a legacy, non-LSPI full-SAPS oil, but even that is really pushing it.

Just wait and see the VOAs/UOAs of your API-SP-rated European oils. They will all have reduced-calcium and added-magnesium additive packages because that is what the additive companies are making now.

 

[edyvw]

It is a mid-SAPS oil. You can never have 3,200-ppm calcium in a mid-SAPS oil—LSPI or not. Perhaps you can see 3,200-ppm calcium in a legacy, non-LSPI full-SAPS oil, but even that is really pushing it.

Just wait and see the VOAs/UOAs of your API-SP-rated European oils. They will all have reduced-calcium and added-magnesium additive packages because that is what the additive companies are making now.

Sure, I understand it is Mid-SAPS. But, there is UOA of Mid-SAPS oil. There are actually two UOA in that file. The previous ESP version actually had around 1000ppm and that oil was not MB229.52.
Will see what it is.
Main point in this thread is whether ESP is LSPI mitigating oil. Yes it is. It has an MB229.52 test.

 

[edyvw]

Here are some other MB229.52 oils:

PP EURO LX 0W30 Winter run of 7500 KM in 2018 GOLF R

Three consecutive UOAs: Earliest UOA (applicable right column) CASTROL 0W40. Middle UOA FUCHS TITAN GT1 5W30 Latest UOA (applicable left column) Pennzoil Platinum EURO LX 0W30 (This oil was in the sump from early November to mid March, during a very cold winter) (ALL DISTANCES are in...

bobistheoilguy.com

Pennzoil Platinum Euro LX 0W-30 - 8,262 mi - 2018 Audi A4 - 31,392 mi.

First oil analysis on my ‘18 A4 Quattro Prestige. Same oil used for each DIY oil change, with roughly the same OCI.

bobistheoilguy.com

15 VW GSW TDI 10k OCI Valvoline SynPower XL-III 5W30

The last 4 OCIs were Castrol Edge Professional ll03 5w30 but I decided to try Valvoline SynPower XL-III 5W30 in my TDI since I got it on sale. Both oils are VW507.00 approved. https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/VCA881058 Previous UOAs...

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[Gokhan]

Here are some other MB229.52 oils:

PP EURO LX 0W30 Winter run of 7500 KM in 2018 GOLF R

Three consecutive UOAs: Earliest UOA (applicable right column) CASTROL 0W40. Middle UOA FUCHS TITAN GT1 5W30 Latest UOA (applicable left column) Pennzoil Platinum EURO LX 0W30 (This oil was in the sump from early November to mid March, during a very cold winter) (ALL DISTANCES are in...

bobistheoilguy.com

Pennzoil Platinum Euro LX 0W-30 - 8,262 mi - 2018 Audi A4 - 31,392 mi.

First oil analysis on my ‘18 A4 Quattro Prestige. Same oil used for each DIY oil change, with roughly the same OCI.

bobistheoilguy.com

15 VW GSW TDI 10k OCI Valvoline SynPower XL-III 5W30

The last 4 OCIs were Castrol Edge Professional ll03 5w30 but I decided to try Valvoline SynPower XL-III 5W30 in my TDI since I got it on sale. Both oils are VW507.00 approved. https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/VCA881058 Previous UOAs...

bobistheoilguy.com

These all-calcium API-SN oils have upgraded to API SP, and they should all have reduced calcium and added magnesium now. It will be interesting to see the VOAs/UOAs for their API-SP versions.

For example, PP Euro 0W-40 SP, PP Euro 5W-40 SP, and QS Euro 5W-40 SP (the last two apparently being the same oil) all have reduced calcium and added magnesium as expected.

Pennzoil Platinum Euro 0W-40 VOA

Switched from Castrol 0W-40 in my 3.2 Liter Audi A4 B7, waiting on results of first Used Oil Report, I will post results when available

bobistheoilguy.com

VOA - PPE 5w40

VOA - PPE 5w40

f87.bimmerpost.com

Quaker State 5W40 European API SP

Quaker State 5W40 European API SP

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[edyvw]

These all-calcium API-SN oils have upgraded to API SP, and they should all have reduced calcium and added magnesium now. It will be interesting to see the VOAs/UOAs for their API-SP versions.

For example, PP Euro 0W-40 SP, PP Euro 5W-40 SP, and QS Euro 5W-40 SP (the last two apparently being the same oil) all have reduced calcium and added magnesium as expected.

Pennzoil Platinum Euro 0W-40 VOA

Switched from Castrol 0W-40 in my 3.2 Liter Audi A4 B7, waiting on results of first Used Oil Report, I will post results when available

bobistheoilguy.com

VOA - PPE 5w40

VOA - PPE 5w40

f87.bimmerpost.com

Quaker State 5W40 European API SP

Quaker State 5W40 European API SP

bobistheoilguy.com

QS 5W40 is SN+ version of PPE 5W40.
PPE SP is different oil.

 

[Big_B]

I can't wait for API SZ to come out. The oil will rebuild the engine while u drive.
Plus it will have zero friction because it will be -50w0 oil.

 

[Gokhan]

I can't wait for API SZ to come out. The oil will rebuild the engine while u drive.
Plus it will have zero friction because it will be -50w0 oil.

ILSC GF-7 is about five years away. There will be many, many improvements and changes:

• a new Noack test
• changes to low-temperature pumping viscosity (MRV) in SAE J300
• less engine deposits
• less oil oxidation (longer oil-change interval (OCI))
• better sludge control
• stricter LSPI control, including for aged oil
• better emission-systems compatibility
• better fuel economy
• inclusion of SAE 0W-8 and SAE 0W-12
• better oil filterability, dealing with the crystal formation by magnesium detergents
• a new corrosion and shear test
• better seal compatibility
• lowering of sulfated ash (SA) limit to 0.9%
• better fuel compatibility with more fuel types

New passenger vehicles and light trucks with internal combustion engines (ICEs) will likely sunset around 2035, when all new vehicles sold in most localities become a plug-in EV without an ICE or hydrogen-fueled. ILSAC GF-8 could be the last iteration after ILSAC GF-7.

ILSAC GF-7: Implementation “tentatively” planned for Q2 2028 - F&L Asia

The next generation of engine oils is already in the works, with a tentative launch planned for Q2 2028. Find out what to expect from ILSAC GF-7 and how it will improve fuel economy and emissions control.

www.fuelsandlubes.com

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

@Gokhan
I have never seen someone so stuck on API and ILSAC rated oils. In my opinion they are bare minimum, not looking out for interest in engine protection, but more into CAFE energy conserving oils. Off topic but API reminds me of FDA, USDA, EPA, etc that allow anything in food etc not looking out for the health of people like API not looking out for engine protection.

 

[Gokhan]

@Gokhan
I have never seen someone so stuck on API and ILSAC rated oils. In my opinion they are bare minimum, not looking out for interest in engine protection, but more into CAFE energy conserving oils. Off topic but API reminds me of FDA, USDA, EPA, etc that allow anything in food etc not looking out for the health of people like API not looking out for engine protection.

No, I am not stuck on any kind of oil or approval. Where did you see me claiming that some approval is better than another?

This discussion was not even about API/ILSAC, but some—including you now—tried to turn it into one.

• It was about the fact that all new LSPI-certified oils will have reduced calcium and added magnesium soon, and most will carry an API-SP approval as well—indicating global LSPI certification. Some here were disputing this fact, and I was explaining that they were simply wrong and why. The reason is simply because it is unproductive for the additive companies to try to make all-calcium LSPI-certified oils given strict ZDDP limits by any Euro or non-Euro OEM now, as calcium starts linearly increasing the number of LSPI events after 1,000 ppm, and you can't even have half the ZDDP content you need to quench these events to acceptable limits.

You need to understand how oils are made and approved. The additive companies make and preapprove the oils—not the automotive OEMs, not the oil blenders. They are preapproved for blending, labeling, and sale. Then you need to understand that global oil approvals go hand by hand. You cannot separate ACEA/Euro-OEM approvals from ILSAC approvals because both ACEA/Euro-OEM and ILSAC additive packages are made by the same additive companies, and global oil approvals evolve simultaneously. For example ACEA and ILSAC have identical ASTM LSPI tests and test limits. Many of the other ACEA tests are also the same American ASTM tests in ILSAC.

Coming back to ACEA/Euro vs. ILSAC, the main difference is possible higher antioxidant (AO) content in ACEA/Euro-OEM oils. Most ILSAC oils also satisfy or explicitly have some ACEA/Euro-OEM approvals. Extended-performance ILSAC oils with higher antioxidant (AO) content sold here should be as good as or better than the best Euro-OEM oils out there, and some of them carry all the Euro-OEM approvals as well. For example, Castrol Edge 0W-20 SP carries an ACEA-C5 approval, and Castrol Edge EP 0W-20 SP with higher antioxidant (AO) content carries an ACEA-C6 approval and virtually all the strict Euro-OEM approvals.

 

[bluecollarlife]

I bet if you change your oil with ESP (or any oil) at a reasonable time, the car will rot to the ground before you have an oil related failure...

Debate over. Close the thread.

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

No, I am not stuck on any kind of oil or approval. Where did you see me claiming that some approval is better than another?

This discussion was not even about API/ILSAC, but some—including you now—tried to turn it into one.

• It was about the fact that all new LSPI-certified oils will have reduced calcium and added magnesium soon, and most will carry an API-SP approval as well—indicating global LSPI certification. Some here were disputing this fact, and I was explaining that they were simply wrong and why. The reason is simply because it is unproductive for the additive companies to try to make all-calcium LSPI-certified oils given strict ZDDP limits by any Euro or non-Euro OEM now, as calcium starts linearly increasing the number of LSPI events after 1,000 ppm, and you can't even have half the ZDDP content you need to quench these events to acceptable limits.

You need to understand how oils are made and approved. The additive companies make and preapprove the oils—not the automotive OEMs, not the oil blenders. They are preapproved for blending, labeling, and sale. Then you need to understand that global oil approvals go hand by hand. You cannot separate ACEA/Euro-OEM approvals from ILSAC approvals because both ACEA/Euro-OEM and ILSAC additive packages are made by the same additive companies, and global oil approvals evolve simultaneously. For example ACEA and ILSAC have identical ASTM LSPI tests and test limits. Many of the other ACEA tests are also the same American ASTM tests in ILSAC.

Coming back to ACEA/Euro vs. ILSAC, the main difference is possible higher antioxidant (AO) content in ACEA/Euro-OEM oils. Most ILSAC oils also satisfy or explicitly have some ACEA/Euro-OEM approvals. Extended-performance ILSAC oils with higher antioxidant (AO) content sold here should be as good as or better than the best Euro-OEM oils out there, and some of them carry all the Euro-OEM approvals as well. For example, Castrol Edge 0W-20 SP carries an ACEA-C5 approval, and Castrol Edge EP 0W-20 SP with higher antioxidant (AO) content carries an ACEA-C6 approval and virtually all the strict Euro-OEM approvals.

I’m not even going to entertain this, bc I’m not an oil expert and don’t claim to be. I only listen to what select few people on here have to post . edyvw, overkill and a handful more users is about all I like to read from. When I hear people say that ACEA is playing catch-up to API and ILSAC, I don’t believe nothing said after that.

 

[Gokhan]

I’m not even going to entertain this, bc I’m not an oil expert and don’t claim to be. I only listen to what select few people on here have to post . edyvw, overkill and a handful more users is about all I like to read from. When I hear people say that ACEA is playing catch-up to API and ILSAC, I don’t believe nothing said after that.

I was only talking with regard to LSPI. That is something Infineum and other additive companies said, not something I invented.

Infineum Insight - ACEA revisions coming soon

As the revisions to the ACEA Oil Sequences near completion, Uwe Zimmer, Infineum Industry Liaison Advisor reports on the unprecedented changes that have been made on the light-duty side and what they might mean for future lubricant formulations.

www.infineuminsight.com

Excerpt:
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The Sequence IVB stands out as it is not meant to be a direct successor of any particular test but rather to fill the gap the TU3 left behind half a decade ago for a gasoline valvetrain wear test. The Sequence IVB is on Toyota hardware and has been developed for API SP / ILSAC GF-6. There is significant debate in AAA about suitable Sequence IVB limits for the ACEA Sequences. The starting point was to carry over the API SP limits, however, industry data gathered on representative ACEA oils suggest API SP limits are not appropriate as they would exclude about 50% of the tested ACEA lubricants with known good field performance.

The Sequence IX LSPI test is well known in the industry, it was developed on Ford hardware for the API specifications and was first introduced to API SN Plus. Its introduction into A7/B7 and C6 is planned at API SP limits, which is supported by all stakeholders.

The A7/B7 and C6 chain wear requirement is also specified by a test developed on Ford hardware for ILSAC GF-6 - the Sequence X. There are similarities to the Sequence IVB in the sense that the introduction at the proposed API SP limits would rule out 50% of the lubricants represented in the industry data gathering mentioned above. Discussions are ongoing about how to define limits appropriate for ACEA lubricants, which are subject to different chemical constrains than API lubricants. All parties agree with the need for chain wear protection. However, given the fact that gasoline direct injection engines have been the predominate gasoline technology in Europe for almost a decade, questions arise on how much additional protection is needed. One party not being prepared to give any compromise on the limit makes finding a mutually agreeable limit look unlikely.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

GM was the first OEM in the world to introduce LSPI oils in 2015 with GM dexos2—three–four years before MB and PSA introduced LSPI oils. API introduced LSPI oils with API SN PLUS in 2018–2019—three–four years before ACEA introduced ACE A7/B7 and ACEA C6 LPSI oils in 2021–2022. That's all I meant by playing catch-up: Euro OEMs and ACEA were three–four years behind US OEMs and API in LSPI.

Now, if you read the excerpt above, things get more interesting:

ACEA decided to adopt API valvetrain and timing-chain wear tests in their ACEA-2021 specification, but it turned out that 50% of the existing ACEA oils failed the API valvetrain test, and another 50% of the existing ACEA oils failed the API timing-chain wear test! Note that most of these oils that failed the API wear tests would carry the "strict" Euro-OEM approvals as well. This should prove to anyone that you cannot make blanket statements such as "Euro oils are always better," "API oils have only the bare-minimum protection and performance," "thicker oils are always better," "more ZDDP is always better," etc. You are comparing apples and oranges when you compare API oils to ACEA/Euro-OEM oils, especially when you look at the silly Lubrizol spec-comparison spider charts, which probably don't mean anything. This comes as a surprise even to me because I didn't expect the ACEA oils to flunk the API valvetrain and timing-chain wear tests so badly, as wear protection is something crucial. What it shows is that there is no such thing as "best oil," and most modern specs these days protect the engines well, and different specs have advantages and disadvantages over each other, which will make an absolute comparison between different specs very difficult if not impossible.

 

[TacoFergie]

So I want to throw a wrench into this thread. I am about to do another OCI on my 2021 Subaru Ascent, which I'll likely be using 0w30 ESP in unless someone says it'll be detrimental. It has a 2.4 DIT that has been somewhat known for fuel in the oil, but I have not had that issue. While not considered a small displacement engine, it is for a 4600lb curb weight vehicle so it's under load most of the time I suspect. I have been noticing high rates of shear and decided to try 0w30. As you can see I have tried both 0w30 AFE and 0w30 ESP. My vehicle requires API SN/SN PLUS, which isn't API SP but o'well. Anyways here's my UOA for you guys to chew over.

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

So I want to throw a wrench into this thread. I am about to do another OCI on my 2021 Subaru Ascent, which I'll likely be using 0w30 ESP in unless someone says it'll be detrimental. It has a 2.4 DIT that has been somewhat known for fuel in the oil, but I have not had that issue. While not considered a small displacement engine, it is for a 4600lb curb weight vehicle so it's under load most of the time I suspect. I have been noticing high rates of shear and decided to try 0w30. As you can see I have tried both 0w30 AFE and 0w30 ESP. My vehicle requires API SN/SN PLUS, which isn't API SP but o'well. Anyways here's my UOA for you guys to chew over.

View attachment 126163

if you search the Subaru forums, lots of people use Rotella 5w40.

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

I don’t trust anything GM. Since the introduction of the 5.3 in 2001 to current, they still can’t get the lifter situation straight. I was a tech for them too, they are a joke.

 

[TacoFergie]

if you search the Subaru forums, lots of people use Rotella 5w40.

That is true for the EJ series engine. But not for the FA24DIT engines. I don't think I'd run a 5w40 in an FA. I know it's a thick vs thin thing, but Xw40 just seems excessive unless your tracking the car.