Difference between M1 0w30 afe and 0w30 esp?

[edyvw]

Re: "Afe was always and still is “whatever “ oil. Here is evidence to the contrary: Ford, at least for its extremely popular Ecoboost 3.5 engine, requires its customers to use a 0W30 oil meeting its WSS-M2C963-A1 standard when the temperature is expected to drop below -20F. M1 AFE 0W30 is the only oil for sale in the US that claims to meet that standard, and it took Mobil four years to get certification after Ford published the requirement. So it appears to be a very hard standard to meet, and only M1 AFE meets it.

It is not hard standard to meet. Why it took Mobil1 so long? Who knows. Ford is the company that was recommending synthetic blend for Ecoboost engines. Mobil1 is really, really good in having all approvals they found it fits their business model. Do you really think Mobil1, major supplier of Formula 1 NASCAR, many manufacturers etc. cannot obtain Ford’s approval? Which is not stringent specification by any means.
In its own category of ILSAC oils, it might be attractive choice due to lack of options. It is good oil. I would still give advantage to M1 5W30 EP.

But, there is absolutely no comparison to ESP in any category. ESP is oil that plays in higher league.

 

[edyvw]

Unless they modified the M1 ESP formulation, it would barely pass any LSPI test with 1,700 ppm calcium if at all.

I wonder which MB engine is used for the LSPI test. M139 has a crazy-high BMEP of 30+ bar. I wouldn't use any high-calcium oil in that engine—w/ or w/o approval.

Depends on other additives too. It is high ZDDP oil.
As I said before, they just relabeled oil packaging. Same like PPE.

I am not aware of LSPI issues on M139.

 

[Gokhan]

Depends on other additives too. It is high ZDDP oil.
As I said before, they just relabeled oil packaging. Same like PPE.

I am not aware of LSPI issues on M139.

It is not high-ZDDP—a mid-SAPS oil with 800-ppm phosphorus, which is at the ILSAC level. Even ACEA A3/B4 full-SAPS oils don't go above 1,000 ppm these days. Therefore, you don't get much help from ZDDP.

 

[edyvw]

It is not high-ZDDP—a mid-SAPS oil (apparently even low-SAPS for the 0W-30 flavor) with 800-ppm phosphorus, which is at the ILSAC level. Even ACEA A3/B4 full-SAPS oils don't go above 1,000 ppm these days. Therefore, you don't get much help from ZDDP.

My point is it is probably at limit of C3. A3 do go above, and there is trend to go above when it comes to Zinc levels.
Will see. Oil is passing LSPI test and MB always had more stringent test requirements than most manufacturers, definitely API.
If I had any of these vehicles that have turbo but have just API recommendation, I would always go ESP or similar oil. I would not give second thought to it.

 

[Gokhan]

My point is it is probably at limit of C3. A3 do go above, and there is trend to go above when it comes to Zinc levels.
Will see. Oil is passing LSPI test and MB always had more stringent test requirements than most manufacturers, definitely API.
If I had any of these vehicles that have turbo but have just API recommendation, I would always go ESP or similar oil. I would not give second thought to it.

It is not even at the ACEA-C3 limit, which is 900 ppm. It is 800 ppm, which is not much different than for the Mobil 1 ILSAC flavors, which have 760 ppm. You are not getting any help from ZDDP for LSPI in comparison to a typical ILSAC oil:

https://www.mobil.com/lubricants/-/...engine-oils-product-guide-sheet--may-2022.pdf

We won't know whether the M1 ESP API SP formulation is the same until we see a VOA or UOA from an API-SP-labeled bottle. PDSs published by ExxonMobil are garbage.

The main difference of the ACEA-C3 M1 ESP from an ILSAC oil is the viscosity. Extended-performance ILSAC oils may actually be superior to the M1 ESP because they carry more antioxidant for longer OCIs. As for the viscosity, OEMs usually make safe recommendations. Don't forget that most new European cars recommend SAE 0W-20 now, and these thicker oils have become outdated.

 

[edyvw]

Ha,I forgot I have UOA of ESP 0W30:

 

[edyvw]

It is not even at the ACEA-C3 limit, which is 900 ppm. It is 800 ppm, which is not much different than for the Mobil 1 ILSAC flavors, which have 760 ppm. You are not getting any help from ZDDP for LSPI in comparison to a typical ILSAC oil:

https://www.mobil.com/lubricants/-/...engine-oils-product-guide-sheet--may-2022.pdf

We won't know whether the M1 ESP API SP formulation is the same until we see a VOA or UOA from an API-SP-labeled bottle. PDSs published by ExxonMobil are garbage.

The main difference of the ACEA-C3 M1 ESP from an ILSAC oil is the viscosity. Extended-performance ILSAC oils may actually be superior to the M1 ESP because they carry more antioxidant for longer OCIs. As for the viscosity, OEMs usually make safe recommendations. Don't forget that most new European cars recommend SAE 0W-20 now, and these thicker oils have become outdated.

1. Most European manufacturers only recommend 0W20 for US market.
2. Which ILSAC oils are rated for 20k OCI? MB, BMW, VW approvals include 30k km OCI requirements. It is absolutely irrelevant that OCI in the US is shorter (for various reasons, mostly crappy gas).
3. There is no single variable where ILSAC oils are superior. Deposit requirements, oxidation , Noack etc.
4. No they don’t recommend appropriate oils. Ford went through several different recommendations. Hyundai/KIA for 10 years had non existing oil recommended.
I posted UOA. Pay attention to calcium levels in previous UOA. It is previous ESP 5W30 version that had VISOM base stock. So Mobil1 increased calcium in this version.

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

I have been a tech for Nissan, Kia/Hyundai, Ford/Lincoln, Honda, Toyota, GM, VW/Audi, and currently BMW. I have never ever seen an engine fail at any of these manufacturers due to LSPI. I was at Honda in 2017-2019 and have never seen any 1.5t fail due to LSPI. What I have seen is fuel dilution. I was at ford back in 2007-2010 then back to ford from 2020-2021. What I have seen is chain guide and chain wear on the 5.4. Ford for year 2021 went back to 5w30 in the Coyote, the coyote had oil consumption issues, as well as the 6.2 had oil consumption issues. In can’t remember what year went from 5w20 to 5w30 in the 6.2 and the consumption stopped. When a coyote would come in with oil consumption issues we would fill it with 5w30 and the consumption went away. My point is I have never ever seen an engine ruined from LSPI in any manufacturer I have worked for. Most engine failure I have seen was Hyundai/Kia, not due to LSPI. Have done timing chains at VW, not due to LSPI, have done timing chains on 3.6 GM, not due to LSPI. That’s my professional opinion on LSPI.

 

[edyvw]

I have been a tech for Nissan, Kia/Hyundai, Ford/Lincoln, Honda, Toyota, GM, VW/Audi, and currently BMW. I have never ever seen an engine fail at any of these manufacturers due to LSPI. I was at Honda in 2017-2019 and have never seen any 1.5t fail due to LSPI. What I have seen is fuel dilution. I was at ford back in 2007-2010 then back to ford from 2020-2021. What I have seen is chain guide and chain wear on the 5.4. Ford for year 2021 went back to 5w30 in the Coyote, the coyote had oil consumption issues, as well as the 6.2 had oil consumption issues. In can’t remember what year went from 5w20 to 5w30 in the 6.2 and the consumption stopped. When a coyote would come in with oil consumption issues we would fill it with 5w30 and the consumption went away. My point is I have never ever seen an engine ruined from LSPI in any manufacturer I have worked for. Most engine failure I have seen was Hyundai/Kia, not due to LSPI. Have done timing chains at VW, not due to LSPI, have done timing chains on 3.6 GM, not due to LSPI. That’s my professional opinion on LSPI.

Some do have, and engine above 2.0ltr to have an LSPI issues, really has to be garbage design. Example would be Toyota 2.2 D-4D.
Some BMW B48 engines had this event. BMW attributes to overly enthusiastic Eco mode. So I think they reprogrammed that.

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

1. Most European manufacturers only recommend 0W20 for US market.
2. Which ILSAC oils are rated for 20k OCI? MB, BMW, VW approvals include 30k km OCI requirements. It is absolutely irrelevant that OCI in the US is shorter (for various reasons, mostly crappy gas).
3. There is no single variable where ILSAC oils are superior. Deposit requirements, oxidation , Noack etc.
4. No they don’t recommend appropriate oils. Ford went through several different recommendations. Hyundai/KIA for 10 years had non existing oil recommended.
I posted UOA. Pay attention to calcium levels in previous UOA. It is previous ESP 5W30 version that had VISOM base stock. So Mobil1 increased calcium in this version.

In my dealer region we don’t even use the 0w20 in the BMW. We use 0w30

 

[edyvw]

In my dealer region we don’t even use the 0w20 in the BMW. We use 0w30

Dealer here uses real stuff, 5W30 LL01 or LL04.

 

[Gokhan]

1. Most European manufacturers only recommend 0W20 for US market.
2. Which ILSAC oils are rated for 20k OCI? MB, BMW, VW approvals include 30k km OCI requirements. It is absolutely irrelevant that OCI in the US is shorter (for various reasons, mostly crappy gas).
3. There is no single variable where ILSAC oils are superior. Deposit requirements, oxidation , Noack etc.
4. No they don’t recommend appropriate oils. Ford went through several different recommendations. Hyundai/KIA for 10 years had non existing oil recommended.
I posted UOA. Pay attention to calcium levels in previous UOA. It is previous ESP 5W30 version that had VISOM base stock. So Mobil1 increased calcium in this version.

We'll look forward to your UOA of M1 ESP 0W-30 SP.

It looks like the LSPI additive packages, including the Euro ones, all are API-SP-certified now; so, I expect the UOA results to show ~ 500-ppm Mg and ~ 1,200-ppm Ca for your M1 ESP 0W-30 SP when you could buy one.

https://www.oronite.com/products-technology/automotive/passenger-car-motor-oils.html

Regarding whether Euro oils are better, it's hard to compare apples to oranges. At the end of the day, all oils use the same or similar additives but at different treat rates. I was saying that TGMO used high boron (dispersant), high moly (AW/EP/FM), and some POE (cleaning solvent) for example and also mentioned high antioxidant (AO) in extended-performance oils. Euro oils may have stronger treat rates for some additives but not necessarily for others. You may or may not notice a performance difference in real life, depending on your engine and driving conditions.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

The ESP is an ACEA C3 oil and has several Euro manufacturer approvals. Its a really good oil, arguably much better than the AFE 0W-30 based on the approvals and specifications it carries.

Said it before I could. The ESP is an awesome oil.

 

[edyvw]

We'll look forward to your UOA of M1 ESP 0W-30 SP.

It looks like the LSPI additive packages, including the Euro ones, all are API-SP-certified now; so, I expect the UOA results to show ~ 500-ppm Mg and ~ 1,200-ppm Ca for your M1 ESP 0W-30 SP when you could buy one.

https://www.oronite.com/products-technology/automotive/passenger-car-motor-oils.html

Regarding whether Euro oils are better, it's hard to compare apples to oranges. At the end of the day, all oils use the same or similar additives but at different treat rates. I was saying that TGMO used high boron (dispersant), high moly (AW/EP/FM), and some POE (cleaning solvent) for example and also mentioned high antioxidant (AO) in extended-performance oils. Euro oils may have stronger treat rates for some additives but not necessarily for others. You may or may not notice a performance difference in real life, depending on your engine and driving conditions.

I posted UOA of one on the shelves now.
Take a look Ca level compared to UOA in another column. The UOA with 4600 miles is pre 2016 VISOM version. They actually increased Ca level from just above 1000ppm to 1700 in 0W30 version. The 2016 EU version on oil.ru has Ca just above 1600. From 2016 pds and new pds, it seems as same oil.
As for European oils, take into consideration that engine we are talking about is recommended for C3 in Europe.
Numerous engines that run ILSAC oils here are C3 oils in Europe. Why? CAFE vs. WLTP.

 

[Gokhan]

I posted UOA of one on the shelves now.
Take a look Ca level compared to UOA in another column. The UOA with 4600 miles is pre 2016 VISOM version. They actually increased Ca level from just above 1000ppm to 1700 in 0W30 version. The 2016 EU version on oil.ru has Ca just above 1600. From 2016 pds and new pds, it seems as same oil.
As for European oils, take into consideration that engine we are talking about is recommended for C3 in Europe.
Numerous engines that run ILSAC oils here are C3 oils in Europe? Why? CAFE vs. WLTP.

Since you didn't have the API-SP-labeled bottle, we won't know sure if the API-SP formulation has magnesium until you could buy one and do a VOA/UOA for it, as ExxonMobil PDSs are often garbage.

Some people drive very fast on German autobahns, but I doubt you would see a noticeable change in wear with SAE 0W-20 vs. ACEA C3 in regular driving on US freeways.

MB recommends full-SAPS ACEA A3/B4 MB 229.5 in Germany vs. SAE 0W-20 MB 229.71 in the US.

https://moba.i.mercedes-benz.com/ba..._81.shtml:5f8b9cfb0e01df5035477e6826582658-17

 

[bhvrdr]

I posted UOA of one on the shelves now.
Take a look Ca level compared to UOA in another column. The UOA with 4600 miles is pre 2016 VISOM version. They actually increased Ca level from just above 1000ppm to 1700 in 0W30 version. The 2016 EU version on oil.ru has Ca just above 1600. From 2016 pds and new pds, it seems as same oil.
As for European oils, take into consideration that engine we are talking about is recommended for C3 in Europe.
Numerous engines that run ILSAC oils here are C3 oils in Europe. Why? CAFE vs. WLTP.

Yours was not the API SP version that will be coming to shelves. You're going to see very different looking voa and uoa now than what you posted.

 

[edyvw]

Yours was not the API SP version that will be coming to shelves. You're going to see very different looking voa and uoa now than what you posted.

I am not sure you get a point what I am saying.
Also, that pds you posted API SP? It is also same one from 2016.

 

[edyvw]

Since you didn't have the API-SP-labeled bottle, we won't know sure if the API-SP formulation has magnesium until you could buy one and do a VOA/UOA for it, as ExxonMobil PDSs are often garbage.

Some people drive very fast on German autobahns, but I doubt you would see a noticeable change in wear with SAE 0W-20 vs. ACEA C3 in regular driving on US freeways.

MB recommends full-SAPS ACEA A3/B4 MB 229.5 in Germany vs. SAE 0W-20 MB 229.71 in the US.

https://moba.i.mercedes-benz.com/ba..._81.shtml:5f8b9cfb0e01df5035477e6826582658-17

MB, BMW etc. mostly went to C3 in 2009. Some engines they kept at A3.
It is not just Germany, these are recommendations for all EU. In Russia it is A3 due to high sulfur levels.

I know that oil is not SP. My point was that M1 actually increased Ca in 2016 even though LSPI was known issue and they knew MB229.52 is going to have LSPI test.
Also Zinc is just at the limit.

 

[bhvrdr]

I am not sure you get a point what I am saying.
Also, that pds you posted API SP? It is also same one from 2016.

The formulation in your car that is not sp looks like this. Its also the formulation we have all voas and uoas for...

This one is in your car....

It looks like this on voa....

This is the new SP that will be on shelves....

We don't have the voa but it will look very different

 

[edyvw]

The formulation in your car that is not sp looks like this. Its also the formulation we have all voas and uoas for...

This one is in your car....



View attachment 125818

It looks like this on voa....


View attachment 125820


This is the new SP that will be on shelves....


View attachment 125819



We don't have the voa but it will look very different

Pay attention on pds from 2016:
https://www.platinuminternational.com/externalpages/oilresults/download/151902.pdf

I posted this some 5 pages behind. You don’t pay attention to anything bcs. you are looking for confirmation bias.

I know which formulation I have.