Difference between M1 0w30 afe and 0w30 esp?

[edyvw]

Mobil 1 states it is not lspi mitigating. I believe them over you. You should know 229.52 has been changed multiple times btw.

Mobil 1 states 0w30 AFE is lspi mitigating. Do you dispute that as well?

It seems you are missing the facts. Please don't state your assumptions as facts ar at least provide the data as i did.

JFC, if it is API SP it has LSPI test. That is only thing that matters!
ESP line is different. It is all about tests and Mobil1 will not state anything that is outside of their legal responsibility. That is because some approvals have LSPI test and some don’t. Mobil1 will never state it is LSPI mitigating as C3 doesn’t have LSPI sequence and VW, regardless that MB229.52 DOES.
MB229.52 is recent approval. MB229.51 was changed several times.
Again, you are making assumptions. You have no idea how this works and you are pushing it hoping someone will say you are right. Familiarize yourself with basics how this works. You stated numerous falsehoods (how 504.00 is RS5 oil, or V6 oil etc). As someone who worked on development and testing of oil that was developed to precisely be approved for VW504.00/507.00, I will say you stumbled on some questionable (to put it mildly) reading about this topic.

 

[OVERKILL]

I didn't assume i literally posted the calcium content showing you ...

ESP is not an lspi mitigating oil. Are you stating it is?


M1 Oils that are...

https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants...ines/low-speed-pre-ignition-engine-protection


View attachment 125195

Eh, we have to be careful with the verbiage here.

API SP has an LSPI test as part of it, and that's what the quote from Mobil is in reference to. LSPI as an issue in North America came about as part of the reduction in ZDDP, which itself is an LSPI mitigator, this reduction (of phosphorous) was also part of the API mandate, starting with API SM, that capped phosphorous on certain thinner grades of oil. It was then determined that calcium promoted LSPI, but ZDDP counteracted that tendency. So, in oils with reduced ZDDP, calcium needed to be replaced with magnesium to reduce the event rate/likelihood of occurrence.

So, objectively, the API created this problem with the phosphorous limits. The Euro lubricants didn't have the same limits on phosphorous, so the higher levels worked to mitigate LSPI. Subsequently, the API had to work with the oil companies to figure out a method to reduce LSPI, which is how we ended up with SN Plus and now SP, utilizing a low calcium, higher magnesium additive package.

The ESP oils came about in Europe much earlier on, to deal with protecting DPF and GPF's (hence: Emissions System Protection). While there was also a reduction in SA and subsequently a reduction in phosphorous, it wasn't at the same level as we saw with the API. Euro marques also undertook LSPI mitigation as part of their testing protocol (which @edyvw noted with respect to Mercedes) based on what was being observed with API-market oils. You can see that in this specification breakdown by Afton:

Also, one thing we are noting with the recent Mobil reformulation is that they've bumped up phosphorous to basically the API limit across the board. This is likely due to the mitigation effect it has on LSPI.

 

[bhvrdr]

JFC, if it is API SP it has LSPI test. That is only thing that matters!
ESP line is different. It is all about tests and Mobil1 will not state anything that is outside of their legal responsibility. That is because some approvals have LSPI test and some don’t. Mobil1 will never state it is LSPI mitigating as C3 doesn’t have LSPI sequence and VW, regardless that MB229.52 DOES.
MB229.52 is recent approval. MB229.51 was changed several times.
Again, you are making assumptions. You have no idea how this works and you are pushing it hoping someone will say you are right. Familiarize yourself with basics how this works. You stated numerous falsehoods (how 504.00 is RS5 oil, or V6 oil etc). As someone who worked on development and testing of oil that was developed to precisely be approved for VW504.00/507.00, I will say you stumbled on some questionable (to put it mildly) reading about this topic.

So mobil 1 will not admit its lspi mitigating but you are sure it is. Got it.

Btw im not going off m1 api sp advertising im going off them stating its not an lspi mitigating oil. Do you have anything from them stating it is?


The rs5 does indeed still spec vw504 btw. Its right on the underhood sticker (ive owned 12 audis)

 

[Revving2Redline]

I am not going to unpack everything you wrote here, because it would be impossible to address that BS in any meaningful time.

I will just say, that whoever is trying to get some advice here, should avoid your posts like a plague.
You are talking small turbo engines. Those engines are used in Europe since 1989. These approvals ESP has are designed precisely with small turbo engines in mind.

Afe is ILSAC, energy conserving oil.
ESP is DERIVED from C3 specification (which is regularly updated!!!). It is not energy conserving oil, it is made out of much better base stocks, has far lower Noack, obviously higher minimum HTHS, etc. Because it is C3 and has numerous other approvals, it is “stay in grade” oil, meaning that for example bcs . it has MB229.51/52 has to be able to stay in grade in MB engines recommended for that approval, or VW504.00/507.00.

Personally, unless absolutely necessary, I would not use Afe 0W30 (unless too cold, like -20 and below), but 5W30EP.
ESP is not necessary in engines such as 2GE-FE or FKS. But, if price is similar to Afe, yeah why not.
Where I would definitely consider ESP are new turbo engines in Toyota/Lexus.

So, can I ask you for an oil recommendation? I used Redline 0w20 til 100,000 miles because of it's high hths and cleaning ability. After I switched to M1 0 & 5w30 and have them running since then. I keep hearing that my 2017 Accord Sport 2.4 CAN run the M1 ESP 0 or 5w30...is it safe to long term? Do I need to spray the intake valves occasionally like I do? A sincere please help as all this stuff has me slightly confused now. Thanks

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

It does have lspi testing? Not according to mobil 1. Which lspi testing did m1 0w30 esp submit to?

Not sure if you know what mitigate means btw.

View attachment 125196

Yes it does.

https://360.lubrizol.com/2020/Understanding-the-Daimler-MB-229,-d-,52-Specification

"The MB 229.52 specification has evolved since its launch, with the Daimler LSPI test being added to the engine test requirements. It is also formulated to go above and beyond the ACEA baseline through:"

 

[kschachn]

So, can I ask you for an oil recommendation? I used Redline 0w20 til 100,000 miles because of it's high hths and cleaning ability. After I switched to M1 0 & 5w30 and have them running since then. I keep hearing that my 2017 Accord Sport 2.4 CAN run the M1 ESP 0 or 5w30...is it safe to long term? Do I need to spray the intake valves occasionally like I do? A sincere please help as all this stuff has me slightly confused now. Thanks

None of this is relevant to the thread title. Stop making stuff up.

 

[edyvw]

So mobil 1 will not admit its lspi mitigating but you are sure it is. Got it.

Btw im not going off m1 api sp advertising im going off them stating its not an lspi mitigating oil. Do you have anything from them stating it is?


The rs5 does indeed still spec vw504 btw. Its right on the underhood sticker (ive owned 12 audis)

You obviously owned them to impress neighbor.
Where are they stating it is NOT LSPI mitigating oil? Stop making up stuff.

 

[bhvrdr]

So mobil 1 will not admit its lspi mitigating but you are sure it is. Got it.

You obviously owned them to impress neighbor.
Where are they stating it is NOT LSPI mitigating oil? Stop making up stuff.

I thought you were just giving counseling about making ASSumptions lol. An Audi would not impress my neighbors lol. The Audis are my project cars.

I meet with m1 reps regularly. That is where i get information from.

Im the one who introduced this to bitog as an example as it was received by m1 reps in a meeting with them on my three c8 Corvettes.

 

[edyvw]

I thought you were just giving counseling about making ASSumptions lol. An Audi would not impress my neighbors lol. The Audis are my project cars.

I meet with m1 reps regularly. That is where i get information from.

Im the one who introduced this to bitog as an example as it was received by m1 reps in a meeting with them on my three c8 Corvettes.

View attachment 125206

I know janitor in Mobil1 office. He says extra virgin oil.

 

[Fahrvergnügen]

As ive already said ACEA A7 / B7 is the comparable to API SP which is what youd want for your small displacement turbo engine. 2018 was the last year before manufacturers started requiring low lspi oils because that is literally when sn plus and acea a7 b7 started. Many manufacturers have even gine back and updated old warranty books.

But yes if you were to go buy a new honda turbo it would require an lspi cert oil and a c3 would indeed be out of warranty compliance.


Here is some good reading on the honda 1.5 turbo...

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/suggested-oil-for-2022-honda-civic-si-1-5-l-turbo.351891/

In the USA only its states 0w20 is ‘recommended’ which is for fuel economy ONLY!!!! You CAN run a higher viscosity oil. As stated in these forums, in other countries outside of USA, ACEA C2 or C3 in any viscosity 0w30 to 15w40 can be used. The engine is no different from country to country. You’re stuck on that API BS. Those oils are for CAFE.

 

[OVERKILL]

So mobil 1 will not admit its lspi mitigating but you are sure it is. Got it.

If it meets the performance requirements for either API SP or any of the Euro approvals (like the MB ones) that have LSPI mitigation/avoidance as part of their protocol, it mitigates LSPI. The link you posted earlier, which I already addressed, is speaking specifically about API SP and its requirements.

Btw im not going off m1 api sp advertising im going off them stating its not an lspi mitigating oil. Do you have anything from them stating it is?

You have not posted anything in this thread where Mobil specifically states ESP is not LSPI mitigating. You've posted their API SP page on LSPI, that doesn't get into any of the Euro approvals which also have that requirement. The list of the oil on the bottom of that page were the ones that had API SP on them when that page was created. That list is much longer now.

 

[edyvw]

If it meets the performance requirements for either API SP or any of the Euro approvals (like the MB ones) that have LSPI mitigation/avoidance as part of their protocol, it mitigates LSPI. The link you posted earlier, which I already addressed, is speaking specifically about API SP and its requirements.

You have not posted anything in this thread where Mobil specifically states ESP is not LSPI mitigating. You've posted their API SP page on LSPI, that doesn't get into any of the Euro approvals which also have that requirement. The list of the oil on the bottom of that page were the ones that had API SP on them when that page was created. That list is much longer now.

It is legal issue.
API SP has LSPI test, it is targeted at audience that needs API SP or SN+. Bingo bongo, done deal: mitigates LSPI.

ESP is different bcs. VW504.00/507.00 just introduced LSPI test. They didn’t have test until recently. Or one uses VW504.00/507.00 in VW502.00 in Europe since VW504.00/507.00 over there is backward compatible. But, LSPI issue occurs in engine that requires VW502.00. It is problem as ESP is designed first and foremost as specific oil for cars that require specific formulation. Sure, there are some cars in EU requiring just C3 (and yes,, both 2GR-FE and FKS in EU are recommended for C3) but C3 does not have that requirement and M1 cannot claim it mitigates LSPI in Honda 1.5T in EU.
we know MB229.52 is most stringent requirement blah, blah, blah, but legal world works differently.

 

[OVERKILL]

It is legal issue.
API SP has LSPI test, it is targeted at audience that needs API SP or SN+. Bingo bongo, done deal: mitigates LSPI.

ESP is different bcs. VW504.00/507.00 just introduced LSPI test. They didn’t have test until recently. Or one uses VW504.00/507.00 in VW502.00 in Europe since VW504.00/507.00 over there is backward compatible. But, LSPI issue occurs in engine that requires VW502.00. It is problem as ESP is designed first and foremost as specific oil for cars that require specific formulation. Sure, there are some cars in EU requiring just C3 (and yes,, both 2GR-FE and FKS in EU are recommended for C3) but C3 does not have that requirement and M1 cannot claim it mitigates LSPI in Honda 1.5T in EU.
we know MB229.52 is most stringent requirement blah, blah, blah, but legal world works differently.

It's a verbiage issue IMHO. The Ford LSPI test as part of API SP isn't really any different from the MB LSPI test as part of the MB approvals in terms of validity. It's just that the Euro marques push for their own individual approvals, while on this side of the pond a lot of the time it's just API/ILSAC; it's more general.

I mean, even M1 FS 0W-40 is now API SP, lol.

 

[edyvw]

It's a verbiage issue IMHO. The Ford LSPI test as part of API SP isn't really any different from the MB LSPI test as part of the MB approvals in terms of validity. It's just that the Euro marques push for their own individual approvals, while on this side of the pond a lot of the time it's just API/ILSAC; it's more general.

I mean, even M1 FS 0W-40 is now API SP, lol.

I agree. But then it is API, everything is mooted. LSPI test on Ford engine that doesn’t have LAPI issues? Give me for my KIA.

 

[bhvrdr]

If it meets the performance requirements for either API SP or any of the Euro approvals (like the MB ones) that have LSPI mitigation/avoidance as part of their protocol, it mitigates LSPI. The link you posted earlier, which I already addressed, is speaking specifically about API SP and its requirements.

You have not posted anything in this thread where Mobil specifically states ESP is not LSPI mitigating. You've posted their API SP page on LSPI, that doesn't get into any of the Euro approvals which also have that requirement. The list of the oil on the bottom of that page were the ones that had API SP on them when that page was created. That list is much longer now.

Here ya go

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

 

[Gokhan]

I just bought a used 2020 Camry and yes I know recommended oil is 0w16 but I always had luck with 0w30 on my 4 cyl cars. I was looking for 0w30 afe from Walmart but they were out and found 0w30 esp if European formula at AutoZone. Does anyone know the different between the two? I am thinking of using it in the Camry

Two–three grades higher than the OEM recommendation? You like paying extra for gasoline, especially these days? I guess you should never mind what the OEM recommends. Why don't you pick up a 2.5-gallon jug of Mobil Delvac Extreme 15W-40 CK-4 and call it a day.

Mobil Delvac Extreme 15W-40 CK-4, 2.5 gallons, @ Walmart

 

[Gokhan]

If it meets the performance requirements for either API SP or any of the Euro approvals (like the MB ones) that have LSPI mitigation/avoidance as part of their protocol, it mitigates LSPI. The link you posted earlier, which I already addressed, is speaking specifically about API SP and its requirements.

You have not posted anything in this thread where Mobil specifically states ESP is not LSPI mitigating. You've posted their API SP page on LSPI, that doesn't get into any of the Euro approvals which also have that requirement. The list of the oil on the bottom of that page were the ones that had API SP on them when that page was created. That list is much longer now.

If a spec does not have an LSPI test, it does not have LSPI mitigation, period—no other ifs and buts. That goes for any other test like timing-chain wear, diesel-soot control, etc. I am not aware of any European OEMs that have any LSPI tests outside ACEA. US OEMs are the ones who championed LSPI and timing-chain-wear tests and first incorporated them into API/ILSAC specs, long before ACEA followed suit.

Last but not least, if an oil is high in calcium and low in magnesium, it will cause LSPI in LSPI-prone engines. All LSPI-protecting oils have a mixed calcium–magnesium detergent by definition. There is no such thing as a high-calcium oil that protects against LSPI. Calcium is the main culprit of LSPI, and everything else, including ZDDP, moly, base oil, etc. is secondary.

Most European specs have become obsolete. ACEA A5/B5 has been replaced by A7/B7 and ACEA C5 by C6. The new specs have LSPI and timing-chain-wear protection. Thicker specs like ACEA A3/B4 and C3 are not being used in new cars anymore; so, they are not bothering to update them.

Mobil 1 has been behind in updating their Euro oils, but as you know, they have recently updated Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 to API SP; so, it has LSPI and timing-chain-wear protection now.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Here ya go

View attachment 125440

You don't understand what you're reading.

It's written in the Afton handbook as "Daimler LSPI Test In House". This was posted above by @OVERKILL.
I also posted directly from Lubrizol website which states that the applicable Mercedes spec contains a LSPI test.

 

[wpod]

Car has 213,000 miles on it. Definitely long term and I do siphon out a couple of quarts and replace every 4,000 miles. Central Kansas weather . Change CVT fluid every 10-15000 miles

213,000 miles , we need to be asking your advice !