Difference between M1 0w30 afe and 0w30 esp?

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Again there is no requirement for an API license here. It states that if you use a lubricant that does not carry an API SN PLUS license and there is damage that the warranty will not be valid. There is definitely no requirement for grade.

Lol when a manual says your warranty may be void if you dont use that specification of oil that would be requiring it.

Its no different than saying you must use vw508 or your warranty may be void.

It actually uses the word "requirements" right in the manual btw.

In case people didn't get the word "requirement" they later added the verbiage that if you don't use it than it may cause unwarrantied engine damage. That verbiage was to make it MORE clear lol
 
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Hold up how? Against fuel dilution? No. Fuel dilution is primarily a simple physical dilution and the only way you will combat it is though a higher viscosity fluid. It makes no difference how "stout" the oil appears.

Mechanical shear is greatly dependent on the engine design, and we've seen very few confirmed instances of that on here despite it being an ongoing boogie man.
I do agree that fuel dilution is a physical dilution that thins the oil. But wouldn't an oil that stays within the manufactures recommended grade (ow30) at the end of the OCI be better than having an oil that shears down 25%(0W20) putting it into a 15wt category?

I'm trying to say thicker oil always protects better. But in this instance, wouldn't 1 grade higher be better overall to combat mechanical shear and/or fuel dilution? I'm trying to understand this. Oil and UOA's for me has been harder to grasp than most automotive subjects, there are so many nuances to it. I've read many posts and BITOG's FAQ, but for some reason I struggle on this subject. What I see is that a generally robust 0w20 (Mobil 0w20 EP) is dropping well out spec. While 0w30 is dropping below spec, it's staying within the manufactures recommended 20wt spec. To me this seems like it will protect better in the long run. I could be reading this very wrong, please let me know if I am.
 
Lol when a manual says your warranty may be void if you dont use that specification of oil that would be requiring it.

@kschachn can clarify this if I’m wrong but I think what he is saying is that if you run a oil that does not meet modern specs and requirements then the warranty could be denied. For example, if you run Acme motor oil from a dollar store that doesn’t meet any specs at all and your engine blows up then you are on your own.
 
I do agree that fuel dilution is a physical dilution that thins the oil. But wouldn't an oil that stays within the manufactures recommended grade (ow30) at the end of the OCI be better than having an oil that shears down 25%(0W20) putting it into a 15wt category?

I'm trying to say thicker oil always protects better. But in this instance, wouldn't 1 grade higher be better overall to combat mechanical shear and/or fuel dilution? I'm trying to understand this. Oil and UOA's for me has been harder to grasp than most automotive subjects, there are so many nuances to it. I've read many posts and BITOG's FAQ, but for some reason I struggle on this subject. What I see is that a generally robust 0w20 (Mobil 0w20 EP) is dropping well out spec. While 0w30 is dropping below spec, it's staying within the manufactures recommended 20wt spec. To me this seems like it will protect better in the long run. I could be reading this very wrong, please let me know if I am.
Sorry but I have no idea what you’re saying here. You need a minimum HT/HS and that’s what’s important not how “robust” any grade or brand may seem, whatever that may mean.
 
Lol when a manual says your warranty may be void if you dont use that specification of oil that would be requiring it.

Its no different than saying you must use vw508 or your warranty may be void.

It actually uses the word "requirements" right in the manual btw.

In case people didn't get the word "requirement" they later added the verbiage that if you don't use it than it may cause unwarrantied engine damage. That verbiage was to make it MORE clear lol
It doesn’t say that though, does it? It says your warranty is predicated on an oil that prevents engine damage. No VW 504 00 oil is going to cause damage when 508 00 approval is listed. My VW owner’s manual does not claim that my warranty will be violated if I use an oil other than 508, no matter how stringent the CAFE mandated language may be.

And why would it? The automaker knows full well that 504 00 oil is better for longevity. They aren’t ignorant. Read a CAFE award letter to understand why owner’s manuals have the language they do and exactly why it is worded the way it is. It has zero to do with technical or mechanical reasons or superiority. Except for a slight fuel economy benefit there is no reason a 508 oil is better.
 
It doesn’t say that though, does it? It says your warranty is predicated on an oil that prevents engine damage. No VW 504 00 oil is going to cause damage when 508 00 approval is listed. My VW owner’s manual does not claim that my warranty will be violated if I use an oil other than 508, no matter how stringent the CAFE mandated language may be.

And why would it? The automaker knows full well that 504 00 oil is better for longevity. They aren’t ignorant. Read a CAFE award letter to understand why owner’s manuals have the language they do and exactly why it is worded the way it is. It has zero to do with technical or mechanical reasons or superiority. Except for a slight fuel economy benefit there is no reason a 508 oil is better.

That is incorrect as far as what the manual states.

No the alfa romeo manual does not say "...an oil that prevents oil damage."

Let me post it again.

It says you must use an sn plus oil. Not just any quality oil.

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Additionally 4 of my audis state the SPECIFIC spec must be used to avoid engine damage and warranty denial. The manual specifically states you must use the oil on the engine compartment oil requirement sticker. If you look on your oil requirement sticker you will see ONE vw certification. I dont know of a manual that specs vw508 that says ( or vw504) in it. That wouldn't even be using the required viscosity in the manual.


And yes my Corvette manual says you must use dexos 2. It doesn't say "or any other quality oil"
 
That is incorrect as far as what the manual states.

No the alfa romeo manual does not say "...an oil that prevents oil damage."

Let me post it again.

It says you must use an sn plus oil. Not just any quality oil.

View attachment 128415


Additionally 4 of my audis state the SPECIFIC spec must be used to avoid engine damage and warranty denial. The manual specifically states you must use the oil on the engine compartment oil requirement sticker. If you look on your oil requirement sticker you will see ONE vw certification. I dont know of a manual that specs vw508 that says ( or vw504) in it. That wouldn't even be using the required viscosity in the manual.


And yes my Corvette manual says you must use dexos 2. It doesn't say "or any other quality oil"
It still does not say you MUST or that you are REQUIRED use anything. It CAUTIONS that using oils that do not meet the RECOMMENDED (NOT required) SN Plus or equivalent oil specifications can (NOT will or shall) cause engine damage not covered by the warranty.

Recommended does not equal required. Now, I am not suggesting that one should deviate, but the language is clear.
 
It still does not say you MUST or that you are REQUIRED use anything. It CAUTIONS that using oils that do not meet the RECOMMENDED (NOT required) SN Plus or equivalent oil specifications can (NOT will or shall) cause engine damage not covered by the warranty.

Recommended does not equal required. Now, I am not suggesting that one should deviate, but the language is clear.


When a car manufacturer says "Use this oil or you your car may be damaged and it won't be covered by warranty" thats called an oil requirement. Of course they don't have oil police who can force you to use it but thats why they say they may just deny warranty coverage.

It sounds like you are literally having to see the word requirement which is two lines up in the manual...

Screenshot_20210712-191617_Acrobat for Samsung.jpg


And the Audi and VW manual also specs the exact oil certification right? It says use the oil that is indicated on your underhood sticker right?

And your sticker doesn't say vw508 or vw504 on it does it? It has one single oil certification on it just like my Audi and every other one sold does right?

Again, sure you can pour olive oil in there if you want. But the manufacturer is telling you it may cause damage and they're not covering it. Thats called an oil requirement.
 
When a car manufacturer says "Use this oil or you your car may be damaged and it won't be covered by warranty" thats called an oil requirement. Of course they don't have oil police who can force you to use it but thats why they say they may just deny warranty coverage.

It sounds like you are literally having to see the word requirement which is two lines up in the manual...

View attachment 128453

And the Audi and VW manual also specs the exact oil certification right? It says use the oil that is indicated on your underhood sticker right?

And your sticker doesn't say vw508 or vw504 on it does it? It has one single oil certification on it just like my Audi and every other one sold does right?

Again, sure you can pour olive oil in there if you want. But the manufacturer is telling you it may cause damage and they're not covering it. Thats called an oil requirement.
From a legal perspective, it is still not a requirement, (though I get that you want it to be) it is a RECOMMENDATION and it states that plainly in the manual that you quoted. The statement that you quoted above is not a requirement to use any type or specification of oil either--it is to meet the scheduled servicing plan which is likely based upon mileage.

This has been beat into the ground ad nauseum on this forum since its inception...
 
From a legal perspective, it is still not a requirement, (though I get that you want it to be) it is a RECOMMENDATION and it states that plainly in the manual that you quoted. The statement that you quoted above is not a requirement to use any type or specification of oil either--it is to meet the scheduled servicing plan which is likely based upon mileage.

This has been beat into the ground ad nauseum on this forum since its inception...

You're almost there. You said the word requirement was to meet the scheduled servicing plan. Youre correct and guess what the warranty book says if you don't meet the required scheduled servicing plan?

You guessed it.


So not only does the manual state you must meet the REQUIRED Scheduled Servicing Plan in order to not cause engine damage and warranty denial (which it states that particular oil meets these REQUIREMENTS) does it not?....


But then just in case there's people out there that don't think thats clear enough they put in big bold writing (some of the only bold writing in the entire manual btw) that failure to use the recommended oil may cause damage and warranty denial.


From a legal perspective they just got out of having to warranty the vehicle if you pour whatever you want into it.

Again, youre free to do so but from a legal warranty perspective you're likely out of luck.

And ive had an alfa engine replacement and they did analyze the oil, required all receipts for oil part numbers as well
 
You're almost there. You said the word requirement was to meet the scheduled servicing plan. Youre correct and guess what the warranty book says if you don't meet the required scheduled servicing plan?

You guessed it.


So not only does the manual state you must meet the REQUIRED Scheduled Servicing Plan in order to not cause engine damage and warranty denial (which it states that particular oil meets these REQUIREMENTS) does it not?....


But then just in case there's people out there that don't think thats clear enough they put in big bold writing (some of the only bold writing in the entire manual btw) that failure to use the recommended oil may cause damage and warranty denial.


From a legal perspective they just got out of having to warranty the vehicle if you pour whatever you want into it.

Again, youre free to do so but from a legal warranty perspective you're likely out of luck.

And ive had an alfa engine replacement and they did analyze the oil, required all receipts for oil part numbers as well
LOL - I won't belabor the point. A lawyer would have a field day with the OEM attempting to hold you accountable to anything with the way that it is written--what if you use SP instead of SN+, does that meet the recommendation or not?

For the UOA part, all they would discern is that it is motor oil versus olive oil so not sure what that was supposed to accomplish other than that. It will certainly not tell you if it was SM, SN, or SN+.
 
LOL - I won't belabor the point. A lawyer would have a field day with the OEM attempting to hold you accountable to anything with the way that it is written--what if you use SP instead of SN+, does that meet the recommendation or not?

For the UOA part, all they would discern is that it is motor oil versus olive oil so not sure what that was supposed to accomplish other than that. It will certainly not tell you if it was SM, SN, or SN+.

It says SN Plus or equivalent which SP is backwards compatible to SN Plus so would indeed be equivalent.

As evidenced by the 2022 manual...

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And yes if you put an analysis in front of me from the labs i use i can absolutely tell you if the oil is an sn plus/ SP oil (or at least would meet the cery requirements) which would be equivalence.
 
You're almost there. You said the word requirement was to meet the scheduled servicing plan. Youre correct and guess what the warranty book says if you don't meet the required scheduled servicing plan?

You guessed it.


So not only does the manual state you must meet the REQUIRED Scheduled Servicing Plan in order to not cause engine damage and warranty denial (which it states that particular oil meets these REQUIREMENTS) does it not?....


But then just in case there's people out there that don't think thats clear enough they put in big bold writing (some of the only bold writing in the entire manual btw) that failure to use the recommended oil may cause damage and warranty denial.


From a legal perspective they just got out of having to warranty the vehicle if you pour whatever you want into it.

Again, youre free to do so but from a legal warranty perspective you're likely out of luck.

And ive had an alfa engine replacement and they did analyze the oil, required all receipts for oil part numbers as well
It still does not say anywhere that your warranty will be violated if you use something other than an API SN PLUS or equivalent, or the recommended grade. It only ultimately comes down to damage. You're trying very hard but I'm not the only one here who understands this.
 
It still does not say anywhere that your warranty will be violated if you use something other than an API SN PLUS or equivalent, ....

???

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Also you serm to have forgotten your claim that you vw says you can use both certifications of oil from vw508 to vw504. Can you post your oil requirement sticker under your hood that says that. Youd have the only vw that has that.
 
This has become Twilight Zone now. Your picture of the text has no such statement that the warranty is tied to the license or grade. It shows exactly what I said, that it is tied to damage. One would be a fool to think that a different oil with a stringent approval like VW 504 00 would cause damage here.

And like I said, nowhere in my manual for the VW does it say that the warranty is predicated on the approval nor the grade. The sticker doesn't say that either. What is not covered is damage. But again, one would be a fool to think that a 504 00 oil will cause damage when 508 00 is listed. People need to get a grip.
 
This has become Twilight Zone now...

...Your picture of the text has no such statement that the warranty is tied to the license or grade.

??? It certainly has...

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.... What is not covered is damage.

Is there something else you'd want them to cover other than damage lol..
.
Filing a warranty claim with no damage present usually doesn't go far.


Just so we're clear your oil stocker doesn't say vw504band vw508 on it like you said does it? Your warranty book says to use the oil on your sticker and your sticker has one oil cert on it right? Its a yes or no question.
 
No of course it does not say either/or. But the reason for that is not technical, the reason is because in accordance with VW's CAFE award letter they must actively and aggressively promote and market the exact grade that was used to obtain fuel economy results. It says that if an oil I use causes damage then this may not be covered by warranty.

I've already had warranty work done on my Tiguan. It was for an oil leak (timing cover and pan gasket) and for a coolant leak which was also tied to some other oil leak. So yes there is something that I'd want them to cover other than damage.

And beyond that, when I had them do the two free oil changes at 10,000 and 20,000 miles I asked them to use 504 00 oil instead of 508 00. They didn't even ask why and said they would. They aren't that ignorant to think it would cause damage. It's not a warranty requirement nor is it a safety issue with the engine. It is a mandated marketing issue.
 
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