Difference between M1 0w30 afe and 0w30 esp?

[CarbonSteel]

Oddly enough, my does say "requires". I don't know if that's legally binding if the engine every gave up the ghost, but I haven't seen many say that before.

View attachment 126280

But what is it required for? Warranty coverage or "optimum engine performance and protection"? I read it as the latter particularly since the next statement is "Conventional oil may used if synthetic is unavailable." This infers they are requiring (or they prefer) synthetic over conventional because the next statement is "If 0W-20 synthetic oil is not available 5W-30 conventional oil may be used..."

From my perspective, there is nothing required here except to install oil in the engine and you can use any viscosity from xW-20 through xW-30 as long as it meets API SN or better.

 

[Gokhan]

I take @edyvw word

@edyvw uses SAE 0W-20 in his Honda.

 

[Gokhan]

2021 Honda accord owners manual for UK.
Take notice the star1 at bottom for 0w20 is only for fuel efficiency.
View attachment 126372

Moreover, this oil recommendation is for cars equipped with a gasoline particulate filter (GPF) or diesel particulate filter (DPF). You cherry-picked a GPF-equipped car to falsely claim that Honda recommends mid-SAPS ACEA C2 instead of ILSAC in Europe. Honda does not even sell GPF-equipped cars in the US. Honda markets its ACEA-C2 oil as a "diesel-engine oil" because diesel engines are equipped with a DPF, requiring lower-SAPS engine oils for the longevity of the DPF.

0W30 Genuine Honda Fully Synthetic C2 Diesel Engine Oil | 4 Litres (08232P99T4LHE) - Cox Motor Parts

Buy 0W30 Genuine Honda Fully Synthetic C2 Diesel Engine Oil | 4 Litres (08232P99T4LHE) from Cox Motor Parts. Learn more.

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[edyvw]

@edyvw uses SAE 0W-20 in his Honda.

Of course. I maintain the car and use it. But it is actually in the ownership of my in-laws. They spend several days a year here. So I just go with the flow.

 

[edyvw]

You conveniently inserted the word "only" to try to prove your claim.

This recommendation even contradicts itself. Honda Genuine Engine Oil Type 2.0 is SAE 0W-20, which has a lower HTHS viscosity than the ACEA-C2 minimum of 2.9 cP.

Again, the reason for varying recommendations in different localities is oil availability. In Europe, most oils are ACEA, and SAE 0W-20 is hard to find—in this case, the owner is simply being referred to the Honda dealer to find it.

No it is not. You can find it everywhere.

 

[edyvw]

2021 Honda accord owners manual for UK.
Take notice the star1 at bottom for 0w20 is only for fuel efficiency.
View attachment 126372

Honda is playing games here.
What is commercial oil? Aftermarket oil?
However, regardless of what it is, using C3 per Honda is absolutely OK.
Also, they are telling you primary reason why 0W20 is used.

 

[Gokhan]

All manufacturers use higher HTHS bcs. emissions and consumption is calculated differently. Toyota for this particular engine we are taking about requires ACEA C3 oils in Europe.
It is also telling that new 2.4T engine requires at minimum (bcs. Toyota in manual has wording that under hard exploitation heavier oil can be used) 0W20, not 0W16. Which means that 0W20 is minimum they couldn’t go below. Which is telling.

Toyota neither "requires" nor recommends an ACEA-C3 oil for this engine in Europe.

The oil recommendation in Europe for the Toyota A25A/A25B-FXS engine is the same as in the US: SAE 0W-16 ILSAC GF-6B or API SN and above. It is the same language for thicker oils in certain driving conditions or when SAE 0W-16 is not available. Here is the UK owner's manual:

https://d24bc9lyrt5en5.cloudfront.net/Customer-Portal-Admin/emanuals/TOYOTA/OM33G33E.pdf

Owner's Manual | Customer Information | Toyota UK

Find your Toyota’s owner’s manual by using the search options on our website. You can read it online or download it to read offline whenever you want.

www.toyota.co.uk

Manuals | Lexus UK

Find and access your Lexus's owner’s manual here. Lexus United Kingdom owner's manual are available to read both online or download for offline usage.

www.lexus.co.uk

As far as I know, Toyota only recommends mid-SAPS ACEA C2 or C3 for vehicles equipped with gasoline (petrol) or diesel particulate filters, to protect those filters. if you think otherwise, let's see the accompanying owner's manual.

Why is it an issue that Toyota recommends 0W-20 for its turbocharged engines instead of 0W-16? Higher power density increases the viscosity requirement. Don't forget that SAE 0W-8 and SAE 0W-12 are almost here, too.

 

[edyvw]

Toyota neither "requires" nor recommends an ACEA-C3 oil for this engine in Europe.

The oil recommendation in Europe for the Toyota A25A engine is the same as in the US: SAE 0W-16 ILSAC GF-6B or API SN and above. It is the same language for thicker oils in certain driving conditions or when SAE 0W-16 is not available. Here is the UK owner's manual:

https://d24bc9lyrt5en5.cloudfront.net/Customer-Portal-Admin/emanuals/TOYOTA/OM33G33E.pdf

Owner's Manual | Customer Information | Toyota UK

Find your Toyota’s owner’s manual by using the search options on our website. You can read it online or download it to read offline whenever you want.

www.toyota.co.uk

Manuals | Lexus UK

Find and access your Lexus's owner’s manual here. Lexus United Kingdom owner's manual are available to read both online or download for offline usage.

www.lexus.co.uk

As far as I know, Toyota only recommends mid-SAPS ACEA C2 or C3 for vehicles equipped with gasoline (petrol) or diesel particulate filters, to protect those filters. if you think otherwise, let's see the accompanying owner's manual.

Why is it an issue that Toyota recommends 0W-20 for its turbocharged engines instead of 0W-16? Higher power density increases the viscosity requirement. Don't forget that SAE 0W-8 and SAE 0W-12 are almost here, too.

Toyota requires 0W20 for 2.4 Turbo engine (T24A), not a naturally aspirated version. I indicated 2.4T, the engine that just hit the market in Highlander. It is the bare minimum otherwise, it would be recommended for 0W16, like the naturally aspirated version.

For 2GR-FE and FKS, it is C3 oil.
I did not mention A25A anywhere.

 

[PimTac]

With a direct injected turbo or direct injected engine period is foolish to run a 0w20 in engines that have fuel dilution which is the nature of these engines. So now you have an oil that has sheared down to a 10 weight or less. The 0w20 is only for CAFE, as other members have stated. 0w20 is not in the best interest of engine protection only for fuel savings period the end. Use the thicker oil and change oil at 5000 miles.

I will use the 0W-20 that I have been using since 2017 and I have no fears of engine failure or any oil related issues. Many engines are running the same grade and going on for years.

But you do what you want.

 

[Gokhan]

Toyota requires 0W20 for 2.4 Turbo engine (T24A), not a naturally aspirated version. I indicated 2.4T, the engine that just hit the market in Highlander. It is the bare minimum otherwise, it would be recommended for 0W16, like the naturally aspirated version.

For 2GR-FE and FKS, it is C3 oil.
I did not mention A25A anywhere.

I think the OP's car has a Toyota A25A engine.

Nevertheless, the Lexus UK owner's manual recommends an ILSAC 0W-20 for 2GR-FKS:

https://d24bc9lyrt5en5.cloudfront.net/Customer-Portal-Admin/emanuals/LEXUS/OM48K51E.pdf

 

[edyvw]

I think the OP's car has a Toyota A25A engine.

Nevertheless, the Lexus UK owner's manual recommends an ILSAC 0W-20 for 2GR-FKS:

https://d24bc9lyrt5en5.cloudfront.net/Customer-Portal-Admin/emanuals/LEXUS/OM48K51E.pdf

 

[Gokhan]

View attachment 126421

Official oil recommendations are not found on oil-blender websites. They are found in owner's manuals.

Let's see the German owner's manual then.

 

[Gokhan]

Official oil recommendations are not found on oil-blender websites. They are found in owner's manuals.

Let's see the German owner's manual then.

Here is the German owner's manual. Nothing changes. An ILSAC 0W-20 is recommended for the Toyota 2GR-FKS engine:

https://d24bc9lyrt5en5.cloudfront.net/Customer-Portal-Admin/emanuals/LEXUS/OM9A020M_v1.pdf

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Lesen Sie aktuelle Benutzerhandbücher für Ihren Lexus. Damit genießen Sie auch unterwegs komfortablen Zugriff auf wichtige Fahrzeuginformationen.

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[TacoFergie]

Ooof, I didn't think this would spark a conversation like this. But I like seeing both sides of the info.

Use ESP. There is some shearing, but ESP is closer to the grade.
Though with that shearing, I would bump it to Motul X-Clean 5W40.

I don't feel like it's necessary to bump up to an Xw40 oil, especially since in IA we see temps from -10F (sometimes colder) to 100F+. I'm fine going up one grade, but 2 is bit out of my comfort zone for new car. My 01 Outback, absolutely! But that thing has 230k+ and piston slap like a mofo. lol I really didn't expect it to last 2 years, but it's been going for 4 years with pretty bad piston slap.

If your owner's manual recommends SAE 0W-20, you will be fine it. Use a good API-SP-rated SAE 0W-20 such as Castrol Edge Extended-Performance 0W-20 SP. It also has Euro-OEM approvals if it makes you feel more confident about it. Other API-SP-rated extended-performance 0W-20 oils should be good, too.

If you read my post before yours, you will see that more than half of the Euro oils that didn't have an API-SP rating flunked the API-SP valvetrain and timing-chain wear tests, and 90% of these oils are thick ACEA-A3/B4 full-SAPS and thick ACEA-C3 mid-SAPS oils. A thicker oil and/or more SAPS do not automatically mean more protection against wear. A well-balanced additive package is crucial.

It's not so much a comfort thing to have Euro oil specs, even though it's thought to have more strict standards. It's more to do with how low the viscosity gets. Subaru Recommends 6k mi OCI's and I can't imagine how low 0w20 would be at 6k miles. The FA24 is somewhat known for fuel dilution, I have my theory why and I can get into that if your curious. I know a higher viscosity doesn't fix fuel dilution, but it will stay in grade better. So far it doesn't seem like mine is showing signs of fuel dilution with my limited understanding of the UOA's.

Do you think Castrol Edge EP 0w20 would hold up better than Mobil EP 0w20? Before looking at 0w30 variants I was looking at using TGMO 0w20 or Idemitsu 0w20. The TGMO seems like a stout oil from my understanding. I understand a little bit about oil and additives, but it gets to be an information overload for me.

Read the top and then read the if 0w20 is not available.

I do see where you're going with this. It is odd how they mention 5w30 "conventional" motor oil. I think it's harder to find conventional or even semi-syn oil than full synthetic anymore. Maybe it's just that I haven't looked though. lol

 

[edyvw]

Official oil recommendations are not found on oil-blender websites. They are found in owner's manuals.

Let's see the German owner's manual then.

I know it is not official, but M1 never recommends something that is out of manufacturer's recommendation. This is where that flexible language comes into play.

 

[bhvrdr]

No vehicles ‘require’ API SN/SN PLUS. That is only in the USA it is recommended, but not required.

???? I actually have two different cars that do

 

[buster]

My thought on viscosity hasn't changed much. Viscosity is always presented as an absolute. It's not. It's very broad range and I'd say most if not all engines can technically run on multiple viscosities.

The mistake people make is - 0w20 = fuel economy = bad engine protection. It doesn't work that way. Yes fuel economy has driven the push to lower viscosity, but they don't just abandon wear properties etc. in the move to lower viscosity grades.

 

[kschachn]

???? I actually have two different cars that do

View attachment 126727

Again there is no requirement for an API license here. It states that if you use a lubricant that does not carry an API SN PLUS license and there is damage that the warranty will not be valid. There is definitely no requirement for grade.

 

[kschachn]

Do you think Castrol Edge EP 0w20 would hold up better than Mobil EP 0w20? Before looking at 0w30 variants I was looking at using TGMO 0w20 or Idemitsu 0w20. The TGMO seems like a stout oil from my understanding. I understand a little bit about oil and additives, but it gets to be an information overload for me.

Hold up how? Against fuel dilution? No. Fuel dilution is primarily a simple physical dilution and the only way you will combat it is though a higher viscosity fluid. It makes no difference how "stout" the oil appears.

Mechanical shear is greatly dependent on the engine design, and we've seen very few confirmed instances of that on here despite it being an ongoing boogie man.

 

[OVERKILL]

Hold up how? Against fuel dilution? No. Fuel dilution is primarily a simple physical dilution and the only way you will combat it is though a higher viscosity fluid. It makes no difference how "stout" the oil appears.

Mechanical shear is greatly dependent on the engine design, and we've seen very few confirmed instances of that on here despite it being an ongoing boogie man.

Yep. I will note that Navi's recent comparo UOA's (that were wildly misconstrued) did show that the Supertech showed 16% viscosity loss via mostly shear. The Pennzoil product showed basically zero shear.