Difference between M1 0w30 afe and 0w30 esp?

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As much as I understand that grades are recommendations I think this shows that approvals are actually the same thing. As long as the oil does not cause engine damage then I would say they can’t actually require a license, specification nor approval either. They have no legal basis for doing so.
 
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Read it again....

No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if—

(1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and

(2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest."
So, API SN-Plus is a brand, trade, or corporate name?

What Alfa Romeo, and other automakers requirements for oil is in full compliance of the law, since they have other commercial alternatives other than using the automaker's branded product.

And the law makes no mention that the branded product has to be provided for free.
 
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But apparently there is this unwritten rule against exceeding them.

You may exceed them with an "equivalent" such as using API SP in a car that requires API SN Plus.

VW504 is not an equivalent of VW508. So youd be rolling the dice
 
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So, API SN-Plus is a brand, trade, or corporate name?

What Alfa Romeo, and other automakers requirements for oil is in full compliance of the law, since they have other commercial alternatives other than using the automaker's branded product.

And the law makes no mention that the branded product has to be provided for free.

That is literally what i said???


Because the law states they can't require a specific brand. It does not say they can't require a performance standard. The law was designed to prevent monopolies like GM requiring to you only use AC Delco oil in your car then charging 15 per quart for a basic oil. Theres no law against requiring oil quality standards be met.
 
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It's pretty obvious the manufacturer specifying a certain requirement is allowed. Otherwise any manufacturer asking for even an API oil be used would not be allowed.
Specifying but apparently not requiring it for a condition of the warranty. Otherwise the manual would say that, such as “xxx license, specification or approval must be used otherwise the new-car warranty is void”. No manual says that. We had a long thread on that subject a while back and no one could produce such language from either the owner’s manual nor the warranty booklet.
 
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.

And the law makes no mention that the branded product has to be provided for free.
Actually it does. I'll highlight it.

"(c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by Commission​

No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if—

(1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and

(2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest."

I know in the past that was talk about whether Oil Certs fall under the concept of "brand" as a sort of grey area. This is why automakers may deny engine warranties when an engine is full of sludge because it's obvious that the oil was no longer performing regardless of the brand used. They can't deny a claim under factory warranty when an OE equivalent filter failed.
 
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You may exceed them with an "equivalent" such as using API SP in a car that requires API SN Plus.

VW504 is not an equivalent of VW508. So youd be rolling the dice
Rolling the dice how? What makes a 504 oil deficient or “lesser” that constitutes a rolling of dice?
 
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Specifying but apparently not requiring it for a condition of the warranty. Otherwise the manual would say that, such as “xxx license, specification or approval must be used otherwise the new-car warranty is void”. No manual says that.

No manual would ever state such a thing. Its literally illegal to state if you don't use this oil your warranty is 100 percent void

They are required to comply with federal warranty law which states if a non approved part causes damage/failure (or reduction in lifespan or function) to another part the manufacturer doesn't have to cover the repair.

This is why the warranty books all will state that if there is damage it may not be covered.

And it may not. And it will be an extremely expensive and unpleasant experience fighting the manufacturer if they deny your claim
 
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Actually it does. I'll highlight it.

(c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by Commission​

No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if—

(1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and

(2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest.

Reread it.


The passage says if they require a brand, trade, or corporate name they have to provide it free.
And even then they don't have to provide it free if they can get a waiver proving that oil is necessary.

But they do not do this anyways. There is no requirement of a brand
 
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Rolling the dice on a warranty denial.
Due to what exactly? My manual does not say that I will violate my warranty by using 504 00 oil and that approval is better at preventing failure even if it’s solely due to the increased HT/HS.

If someone would like to offer up a plausible scenario where that oil will or may cause damage than I am all ears.
 
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Due to what exactly? My manual does not say that I will violate my warranty by using 504 00 oil and that approval is better at preventing failure even if it’s solely due to the increased HT/HS.

If someone would like to offer up a plausible scenario where that oil will or may cause damage than I am all ears.

Your manual states to use the oil cert listed on your oil sticker. Period.

Is vw504 on your oil sticker? If it is you're good. If not, roll the dice.

Again don't argue with me. Argue with your manufacturer in court if they deny you.
 
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Your manual states to use the oil cert listed on your oil sticker. Period.

Is vw504 on your oil sticker? If it is you're good. If not, roll the dice.

Again don't argue with me. Argue with your manufacturer in court if they deny you.
Well when I find the statement in the manual that it’s tied to the approval instead of damage then I’ll let you know. Or if you do, then let me know.

It also says Castrol somewhere under the hood so will that violate my warranty too?
 
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Reread it.


The passage says if they require a brand, trade, or corporate name they have to provide it free.
And even then they don't have to provide it free if they can get a waiver proving that oil is necessary.

But they do not do this anyways. There is no requirement of a brand
Which is what I said. I also said that Oil Certs could be construed as a "brand" which is why no manuals use the word "required" such as "508.00 is Required".

I'm still waiting for your to circle "Required" in that MOPAR document.
 
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Which is what I said. I also said that Oil Certs could be construed as a "brand" which is why no manuals use the word "required" such as "508.00 is Required".

we agreed.

I was responding to ug Passat

My post..

Because the law states they can't require a specific brand. It does not say they can't require a performance standard. The law was designed to prevent monopolies like GM requiring to you only use AC Delco oil in your car then charging 15 per quart for a basic oil. Theres no law against requiring oil quality standards be met.

His response to me was...

The law, does not state that. I have provided the link to the law.

I have also stated the same thing for the interpretation of the law, which was likely spread by SEMA, as I stated (and you missed)
 
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Which is what I said. I also said that Oil Certs could be construed as a "brand" which is why no manuals use the word "required" such as "508.00 is Required".

I'm still waiting for your to circle "Required" in that MOPAR document.

See post 290 and 292. Again completely moot point. The manufacturer says to use the oil in your manual. If you don't they say they may mot cover a repair they deem related to not using it. That's all that needs to be known
 
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Great so they documented using the non spec oil.
Yes. Because they are not ignorant frankly, and understand what constitutes a warranty violation and what does not. Perhaps they even understand what makes an oil better than another, but maybe that’s giving them too much credit.
 
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Yes. Because they are not ignorant cranky, and understand what constitutes a warranty violation and what does not. Perhaps they even understand what makes an oil better than another, but maybe that’s giving them too much credit.

Wait you're assuming someone at that dealership approves powertrain repairs?

They do not. That is an Audi/VW regional rep who will require all receipts for the oil used. Again seen this dozens of times.
 
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