Car recommends 5W-30 outside US and Canada vs 0W-20. Run 5W-30 right?

[billt460]

I believe @billt460 has a newer Toyota that calls for 0W-16, and has the fancy Toyota sensor feedback "ECU contolled" oil pump that the Car Nut claims will "blow-up" the engine if 0W-16 is not used, lol. I bet that billt460 has never seen a check engine light for an oil pump code with the thicker oil he's used, and won't either if he runs the 0W-40. Maybe he can chime in with more info.

i can see the control logic of an ECU controlled oil pump to set troubke-codes for major oiling system issues, like extreme low or high oil pressure limits, sensor failures, etc. But not because someone used a grade or 2 higher than the specified 0W-16. Throw some of that 0W-5 Redline Racing oil in it, and it may throw a code for too low oil pressure, thinking the engine isn't getting enough oil volume.

As I have mentioned in other posts, I'm retired with 3 vehicles, so none of them get driven to a standard of high mileage. My 2018 Toyota Camry has right around 14,000 miles as I type this.

So no, I'm not exactly the "test bed" to either confirm or deny this. But to answer your question, NO, my car has NEVER thrown a code, illuminated a "Check Engine" light, or given me any indication that it wasn't happy with increased viscosity oil. Not 0W-20, or 0W-30. This in outside temperatures ranging from 39 F in January, to 120 F in the dead of Summer.

And next Spring I will be switching to 0W-40. I don't expect any issues when I do. Again as I mentioned, when I switched to the higher viscosity oil, the best positive feedback I got was a much quieter running engine.

This especially so when I listened to it idling in the garage with the windows down at operating temperature. The thicker the oil, the quieter it runs. The difference was very noticeable. So much so, my wife commented on it the first time she drove it, after I got the 0W-16 out of it.

I believe this whole, "ECU controlled oil pump blowing up Toyota engines with thick oil", is complete nonsense. It couldn't be done. Back to my 0W-16 Fairbanks, Alaska...... 0W-40 Miami, Florida comparison.

Cold temperature start up viscosity is controlled by the weather.... Not what's on the label of the oil jug. Just think about it.

If the Toyota super computer controlled oil pump could not handle pumping "thicker oil", every Toyota dealer north of the Mason / Dixon Line would be inundated with trashed Toyota engines after the first cold snap of Winter set in. To think Toyota would equip an engine with something so silly, (assuming they even could), is totally preposterous.

It makes about as much sense as all of these stories about the government requiring ammunition manufacturers to make ammo where the primers would "go dead" after a certain date. They're not growing tomatoes or lettuce.

 

[Falcon_LS]

from what I know, Honda fills with 0W-20 worldwide.

I cannot speak for other markets, but I do know it's 5W-30 in the Middle East market, which they also sell under their own brand.

 

[billt460]

In shifting this away from Toyota, I'm also going to start using increased viscosity oil, (5W-40), in my 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 HEMI. I was hesitant to venture away from the factory recommended 5W-20, because of the MDS / VVT system these V-8's have.

I had read, (much like the Toyota nonsense with the oil pumps), that ANY change in viscosity would result in a bunch of thrown codes, and the failure of the MDS and VVT systems to operate correctly. The police would then be called to my door, delivering a document direct from Chrysler, voiding my warranty on the spot.

Then I learned, (from many of Overkill's posts), that the larger 6.2 HEMI V-8's in the Ram trucks, all run the exact same VVT / MDS systems as the 5.7..... And they all run on 0W-40 or 5W-40 as recommended by the factory.

So all of this is falling into much the same misinformation category as the whole Toyota oil pump blowing up engines fiasco is. The Internet is great for gathering information. Unfortunately, it's just as great at spreading misinformation.

Which requires us to sort through and decide for ourselves what's crap.... And what isn't. That's usually pretty easily achieved by just letting go of fear, and applying common sense in most of these cases.

 

[Shel_B]

In shifting this away from Toyota, I'm also going to start using increased viscosity oil, (5W-40), in my 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 HEMI. I was hesitant to venture away from the factory recommended 5W-20, because of the MDS / VVT system these V-8's have.

I had read, (much like the Toyota nonsense with the oil pumps), that ANY change in viscosity would result in a bunch of thrown codes, and the failure of the MDS and VVT systems to operate correctly. The police would then be called to my door, delivering a document direct from Chrysler, voiding my warranty on the spot.

Then I learned, (from many of Overkill's posts), that the larger 6.2 HEMI V-8's in the Ram trucks, all run the exact same VVT / MDS systems as the 5.7..... And they all run on 0W-40 or 5W-40 as recommended by the factory.

So all of this is falling into much the same misinformation category as the whole Toyota oil pump blowing up engines fiasco is. The Internet is great for gathering information. Unfortunately, it's just as great at spreading misinformation.

Which requires us to sort through and decide for ourselves what's crap.... And what isn't. That's usually pretty easily achieved by just letting go of fear, and applying common sense in most of these cases.

Good for you! When I first got my Camry a local mechanic told me I had to use 0W-20, and I did, but didn't feel quite comfortable with it. I next added a mix of 0W-20 and 5W-30 and saw nothing untoward happen. I next went to a full change of 5W-30 and again there were no issues. In addition, my highway mileage was greater by almost 15% over the official EPA highway mileage, thereby negating even the fuel-saving benefit of the thinner oil. Win-win-win ... as always, YMMV ... literally.
PS: My Camry uses a variable displacement/discharge oil pump.

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

No ECU controlled variable displacement oil pump (no matter how much sensor feedback it has) should not be engineered to be so sensitive to oil viscosity that its control logic is going to damage the engine in any way, regardless of what the oil viscosity is. If it was, the designeers need to be fired.

If it can handle cold starts and engine warm-up in Alaska without damaging the engine, then it should certainly be able to handle any hot oil viscosity and provide adequate engine lubrication.

I generally agree with what you are saying here and highly doubt, say, using 0W-40 in place of an OEM recommended 0W-20 will cause damage. But I do believe that the PCM (and God as my witness I truly hate car computers as we're gonna trip SKYNET one day) may have much more minor issues that might eat at fuel economy (over and above the penalty of using a thicker weight) or trip codes. While it is true that cold starts of a 0W-20 are thicker than a 5W-40 at temp, I'm pretty sure the sensor feedback does account for that and it's fair to say that operating temp vs. cold start may well be a part of any algorithm...

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

Where is the proof that is actually the case? Or is this just a theory that oil pumps are programmed for a specific viscosity?

The main reason diffetent oil viscosity is called out in different countries is because CAFE isn't a factor.

IIRC, some OMs (posted in other threads) for cars with ECU controlled oil pumps also call out a range of viscosity options. The engine doesn't have a "viscosity sensor", so it doesn't know what viscosiy oil is being used. So in that case it would have to be programmed to use a broad range of viscosity.

Well, where is YOUR "proof"? You're the one advocating it's okay to go against OEM recommendations and possibly incur warranty issues...

 

[ZeeOSix]

Well, where is YOUR "proof"? You're the one advocating it's okay to go against OEM recommendations and possibly incur warranty issues...

I'll see if I can find the thread where someone posted the OM for one of these Toyotas with the ECU controlled oil pump showing viscosity options in other counties. Or maybe someone reading this knows what thread it was discussed in and link it. It was brought up in another thread about this whole "don't use anything but the recommended (not 'required') 0W-16 in this Toyota 'specially programmed' oil pump for 0W-16" or the engine will blow-up nonsense. How could it be "specially programmed" for one viscosity if the OM calls out viscosity options?

Even the USA OM (shot below) says 0W-20 can be used, and even thicker oil for more severe use. Toyota wouldn't say anything like that in the OM if the engine was only required to use 0W-16 because of the oil pump "special programming" and things went off the rails with anything but 0W-16.

And Toyota can't deny warranty if someone wanted to use a higher viscosity per the red underlined statement in the OM.

 

[demarpaint]

View attachment 148822

+1 It's heading that way. IBTL

 

[billt460]

I'll see if I can find the thread where someone posted the OM for one of these Toyotas with the ECU controlled oil pump showing viscosity options in other counties. Or maybe someone reading this knows what thread it was discussed and link it. It was brought uo in another thread about this whole "don't use anything but the recommended (not 'required') 0W-16 in this 'specially programmed" oil pump for 0W-16" or the engine will blow-up nonsense. Hiw could it "specially programmed" if the OM calls out viscosity options?

Even the USA OM (shot below) says 0W-20 can be used, and even thicker oil for more severe use. Toyota wouldn't say anything like that in the OM if the engine was only required to use 0W-16 because of the oil pump "special programming".

View attachment 148874

The complete and total ridiculousness of what that Toyota manual says is all but laughable. Let's analyze it by simply applying common sense, and sixth grade English. The manual states:

"If 0W-16 is not available, 0W-20 may be used. However, it must be replaced with 0W-16 at the next oil change".

What happens if it isn't? 0W-20 can either be run, or it can't. They're directly telling you it can be. Then they even go as far to say that, "An oil with a higher viscosity may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, and / or load conditions."

So... Right in the AMERICAN manual they're telling you thicker is BETTER under severe service.... Well, what happened to "It MUST be replaced with 0W-16 at the next oil change"?

This whole thing is more contradictory than a crack head who just got caught on an episode of, "Cops".

 

[Bill7]

With Europe/Australia owners manual's specing 5W-30 and 5W-40 for the same exact engines that are speced for 0W-16/0W-20 in the US,

and with many of us currently using the 5W-30/5W-40 viscosities in engines speced for lower grades with no issues and possibly quieter engines,

I think we're realizing that we can safely ignore the CAFE tax avoidance influenced low viscosity oils in our owners manuals, and use a higher HTHS oil that will provide more protection for severe service with high load/high heat/high RPM driving.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The complete and total ridiculousness of what that Toyota manual says is all but laughable. Let's analyze it by simply applying common sense, and sixth grade English. The manual states:

"If 0W-16 is not available, 0W-20 may be used. However, it must be replaced with 0W-16 at the next oil change".

What happens if it isn't? 0W-20 can either be run, or it can't. They're directly telling you it can be. Then they even go as far to say that, "An oil with a higher viscosity may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, and / or load conditions."

So... Right in the AMERICAN manual they're telling you thicker is BETTER under severe service.... Well, what happened to "It MUST be replaced with 0W-16 at the next oil change"?

This whole thing is more contradictory than a crack head who just got caught on an episode of, "Cops".

They have to put that statement in the OM to switch back to the "recommended" 0W-16 to meet CAFE rules. Just like they have to "recommend" the viscosity of 0W-16 the car was certified with for CAFE credits.

And to add, a whole OCI could be 10K or more miles, and what if 0W-16 isn't available at the next oil change after running a 10K run on 0W-20? ... so yeah, the oil pump doesn't care and is not specifically "progammed" for 0W-16.

 

[ZeeOSix]

With Europe/Australia owners manual's specing 5W-30 and 5W-40 for the same exact engines that are speced for 0W-16/0W-20 in the US,

and with many of us currently using the 5W-30/5W-40 viscosities in engines speced for lower grades with no issues and possibly quieter engines,

I think we're realizing that we can safely ignore the CAFE tax avoidance influenced low viscosity oils in our owners manuals, and use a higher HTHS oil that will provide more protection for severe service with high load/high heat/high RPM driving.

To add, the science of Tribology and engine wear studies also say this. CAFE forces engine designers to go as thin as possible, and as has been shown many times l, at the expense of some increased wear.

 

[billt460]

They have to put that statement in the OM to switch back to the "recommended" 0W-16 to meet CAFE rules. Just like they have to "recommend" the viscosity of 0W-16 the car was certified with for CAFE credits.

And to add, a whole OCI could be 10K or more miles, and what if 0W-16 isn't available at the next oil change after running a 10K run on 0W-20? ... so yeah, the oil pump doesn't care and is not specifically "progammed" for 0W-16.

I agree 100%. That's ALL that this is about.... CAFE. It has nothing to do with the mechanics of the engine, (or oil pump itself). Or what is the best oil to run, in order to achieve the best engine protection, and engine life.

CAFE has its own set of rules. (Like most everything cooked up by the government). And it becomes all but laughable when they try to tie it in with what is in the engines best interest, as to what it requires for achieving the longest life. And / or best performance.

 

[Bill7]

I agree 100%. That's ALL that this is about.... CAFE. It has nothing to do with the mechanics of the engine, (or oil pump itself). Or what is the best oil to run, in order to achieve the best engine protection, and engine life.

CAFE has its own set of rules. (Like most everything cooked up by the government). And it becomes all but laughable when they try to tie it in with what is in the engines best interest, as to what it requires for achieving the longest life. And / or best performance.

One more piece of evidence:
Higher HTHS = less engine wear. Just google: HTHS wear graph

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

I'll see if I can find the thread where someone posted the OM for one of these Toyotas with the ECU controlled oil pump showing viscosity options in other counties. Or maybe someone reading this knows what thread it was discussed in and link it. It was brought up in another thread about this whole "don't use anything but the recommended (not 'required') 0W-16 in this Toyota 'specially programmed' oil pump for 0W-16" or the engine will blow-up nonsense. How could it be "specially programmed" for one viscosity if the OM calls out viscosity options?

Even the USA OM (shot below) says 0W-20 can be used, and even thicker oil for more severe use. Toyota wouldn't say anything like that in the OM if the engine was only required to use 0W-16 because of the oil pump "special programming" and things went off the rails with anything but 0W-16.

And Toyota can't deny warranty if someone wanted to use a higher viscosity per the red underlined statement in the OM.

View attachment 148874

Completely NOT the issue. The ECU can easily be reprogrammed based on location and yeah, I think everyone is in agreement that using 0W-20 in place of 0W-16 (seemingly little difference at temp anyways) will cause no issues. But using a 5W-40 might throw things off a bit, but I agree nothing catastropically either way..

 

[billt460]

So.... We're supposedly led to believe that Toyota has spent God knows how much, to design this super sophisticated, computerized oil pump, that will NOT pump higher viscosity oil without endangering the engine it's installed in.

And if these owners are foolish enough to take matters into their own hands, and think they're "smarter" than our engineers, by trying to use a higher viscosity oil, they'll be greeted with, at best thrown codes and engine issues. And at worst, a blown engine for not listening to us, and using the oil we recommend.

If any of that remotely held water, Toyota would have engines disintegrating all over this country. But the engines in foreign countries would fare just fine. Because Toyota put oil pumps in those engines that can take the abuse of pumping all of these high viscosity oils. So in essence, Toyota is sabotaging it's own products sold here, in order to keep it's cocky owners in line.

If ANY of this crap was remotely factual, Toyota would be on the receiving end of a class action lawsuit that would make Camp Lejeune look like a slip and fall at Walmart.

 

[kschachn]

Completely NOT the issue. The ECU can easily be reprogrammed based on location and yeah, I think everyone is in agreement that using 0W-20 in place of 0W-16 (seemingly little difference at temp anyways) will cause no issues. But using a 5W-40 might throw things off a bit, but I agree nothing catastropically either way..

Throw what things off a bit?

 

[kschachn]

What makes some of this just really truly goofy is that viscosity is completely dependent upon temperature. And some of these viscosity differences we’re discussing here are truly small at normal operating temperature. I guarantee you that many vehicles here in the upper Midwest never reach normal operating temperature during a typical short trip operation. They certainly aren’t at the normal operating temperature during start and neither is any other vehicle anywhere else. So all of those millions of vehicles in this area will either trip a code or be damaged if this mythical ECU monitoring was in effect.

I just don’t understand where people come up with these baseless constructs about the oil pump nor do I understand why they do so. Are we just trying to scare everybody to death for some agenda that you have?

 

[Jpc1623]

I have a GM 1.5T which specs for 0w20. Opels and Vauxhalls have the same engine they are now 0w20 spec. We need some euro members to chime in on what their cars are using.

 

[PimTac]

With Europe/Australia owners manual's specing 5W-30 and 5W-40 for the same exact engines that are speced for 0W-16/0W-20 in the US,

Not anymore