CAFE has Little to do with Motor Oil Viscosity Use

[dave1251]

I find the whole CAFE and manufacture's do not care about engine durability argument just funny. Is it uncommon for engines to have over 200K on them today? So if this is the case imagine what would happen to engines if manufactures actually cared about engine durability.

 

[nomochevys]

Quote:
And by "abuse" you mean the posibility higher oil temperatures.
Now does that really come as a surprise?


No its not a surprise but it pretty much proves Fords 5w20 spec has been created because of CAFE and the bean counters and not the engineers. Same engine same car and one specs 5w20 and the other that may see high rpm gets 5w50. Ford nor any other manufacture dont always have our best long term interest in mind but you can bet they have theirs in mind from a profit standpoint.

 

[dave1251]

Read my previous post.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: nomochevys
Quote:
And by "abuse" you mean the posibility higher oil temperatures.
Now does that really come as a surprise?


No its not a surprise but it pretty much proves Fords 5w20 spec has been created because of CAFE and the bean counters and not the engineers. Same engine same car and one specs 5w20 and the other that may see high rpm gets 5w50. Ford nor any other manufacture dont always have our best long term interest in mind but you can bet they have theirs in mind from a profit standpoint.


No offense, but you're either being ridiculous or you simply don't understand the function of a cars lubrication system.

ALL oil viscosity choices involve compromise. Yes, that includes European A3 specs and 5W50 spec'd oils. Those oils aren't *better*, they're different, and they come with their own set of compromises. They have increased resistance to flow at colder temperatures, they have higher seal frictional torque and lower efficiency, lower film strength at the top of the piston crown and they generally offer less cooling.

The flip side is that those thicker oils offer higher headroom when dealing with higher oil temperatures and shear rates. Just because a thin oil may not be suitable for extended use at the track, doesn't mean than it can't actually protect better during normal operation. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand? Is it that we're just a society that is predicated on the believe that "more is always better, no matter what"?

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: nomochevys
Same engine same car and one specs 5w20 and the other that may see high rpm gets 5w50. Ford nor any other manufacture dont always have our best long term interest in mind but you can bet they have theirs in mind from a profit standpoint.


It's not the RPM. The 5.0L in my 2012 F150 will rev to 7K on 5W20. It's oil temperature, as it has been since the dawn of the ICE.

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: JOD
I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand?


X2.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: nomochevys
Quote:
And by "abuse" you mean the posibility higher oil temperatures.
Now does that really come as a surprise?


No its not a surprise but it pretty much proves Fords 5w20 spec has been created because of CAFE and the bean counters and not the engineers. Same engine same car and one specs 5w20 and the other that may see high rpm gets 5w50. Ford nor any other manufacture dont always have our best long term interest in mind but you can bet they have theirs in mind from a profit standpoint.


No offense, but you're either being ridiculous or you simply don't understand the function of a cars lubrication system.

ALL oil viscosity choices involve compromise. Yes, that includes European A3 specs and 5W50 spec'd oils. Those oils aren't *better*, they're different, and they come with their own set of compromises. They have increased resistance to flow at colder temperatures, they have higher seal frictional torque and lower efficiency, lower film strength at the top of the piston crown and they generally offer less cooling.

The flip side is that those thicker oils offer higher headroom when dealing with higher oil temperatures and shear rates. Just because a thin oil may not be suitable for extended use at the track, doesn't mean than it can't actually protect better during normal operation. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand? Is it that we're just a society that is predicated on the believe that "more is always better, no matter what"?


This post should receive Hall of Fame consideration.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: buster

If you look at Mobil's latest racing oil line, they are all 0w20/30 and one 0w50. The HT/HS #'s are not always that high either. There are other things to consider.


I guess you didn't read the fine print, did you? You can have one or the other but not both.

Quote:
Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30
Advanced full synthetic formula
specifically designed to maximize
horsepower under race
conditions.

Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50
Advanced full synthetic formula
specifically designed to maximize
engine protection under race
conditions.


BTW, where is that Mobil 1 0W20 racing you mentioned? I only see 0W-20 Advanced Fuel Economy.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

 

[Rocko1]

From a trusted Ford mechanic in another forum.

I personally pinned down a Ford Engineer a couple years ago on this issue.

No one knew the truth at that time, and tighter tolerances was the rumor.

Now the truth: Ford was not meeting the EPA expected/advertised fuel mileage on the new lineup, and was getting complaints about it.

The cheapest easiest way to increase fuel mileage was to thin down the oil. Less resistence= increased fuel mileage.

I then asked "what will this do to an engine in later life?"

The replay was "we dyno tested the engines and they went 100K + "

I said "dyno testing at a controlled engine speed is not real world, what about the guy that doesnt change his oil like he should, major climate swings like we have in Indiana ect."

The reply was " the engine is warrantied for 3/36 after that its the consumers problem"

And thats the truth.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Rocko1
From a trusted Ford mechanic in another forum.

I personally pinned down a Ford Engineer a couple years ago on this issue.

No one knew the truth at that time, and tighter tolerances was the rumor.

Now the truth: Ford was not meeting the EPA expected/advertised fuel mileage on the new lineup, and was getting complaints about it.

The cheapest easiest way to increase fuel mileage was to thin down the oil. Less resistence= increased fuel mileage.

I then asked "what will this do to an engine in later life?"

The replay was "we dyno tested the engines and they went 100K + "

I said "dyno testing at a controlled engine speed is not real world, what about the guy that doesnt change his oil like he should, major climate swings like we have in Indiana ect."

The reply was " the engine is warrantied for 3/36 after that its the consumers problem"

And thats the truth.


Also if you post the same unverifiable junk over and over again on the internets it becomes true!

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: buster

If you look at Mobil's latest racing oil line, they are all 0w20/30 and one 0w50. The HT/HS #'s are not always that high either. There are other things to consider.


I guess you didn't read the fine print, did you? You can have one or the other but not both.

Quote:
Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30
Advanced full synthetic formula
specifically designed to maximize
horsepower under race
conditions.

Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50
Advanced full synthetic formula
specifically designed to maximize
engine protection under race
conditions.


BTW, where is that Mobil 1 0W20 racing you mentioned? I only see 0W-20 Advanced Fuel Economy.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf


Please clarify your statements.

They no longer sell the 0w20 racing oil to the public.

 

[Brigadier]

Some peoples' minds are made up. Try not to confuse them with facts.

Originally Posted By: dave1251

Also if you post the same unverifiable junk over and over again on the internets it becomes true!

 

[Joenpb]

Unfortunately we're short on facts other than the owners manual. But if you look at performance engines from Chevrolet, Dodge, and European manufacturers, heavier oil, in particular 5w30, is specified more often.

I certainly wouldn't worry about using 5w30 in my Mustang because the owners manual recommends 5w20. If I were tracking the car, I'd use something even heavier.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: Rocko1

No one knew the truth at that time, and tighter tolerances was the rumor.
[/i]


I may have considered it creditable till a supposed engineer spits out the tighter tolerance garbage... Anyone with a real technical background should know the engine operates with clearances not tolerances... Tolerance is the amount of variation allowed in a clearance... Tighter would mean the tolerance of the measurement was kept closer to optimum and not allowed to as wide or tight as in a previous design...

Still I have no doubt that under severe operating conditions of heat and RPM the higher grades will give better protection, so even in my mundane drivers will always run something in the 10-11cSt range... I consider it erring on the side of caution...

 

[johnachak]

Originally Posted By: tenderloin
Little is not nothing. Ford did it for CAFE. What has occurred since then you are correct, but Fords original reason was CAFE.

Concerning thinning again you are correct, but I believe CAFE does not involve "thinned" out oil. The government went to great lengths to make sure that 5W-20 oils were readily available and at a reasonable price.


Well, its great to finally hear from one of the experts at Ford that made the decision for that reason. Until now it has just been conjecture as to whether or not that was the reason. I'm also amazed that even with the government stepping in it took so long for the major manufacturers to adopt 5w 20. Thank you for bringing that to light.

 

[johnachak]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I don`t understand the easier starting thing. My car starts the exact same whether I`m using 20W50 or 5W30.

"Startup wear" etc is all liberal government CAFE propaganda. It simply doesn`t exist.

Take two identical cars,track the living [censored] out of them for hours WOT,one with a fuel economy 5W/0W20 and the other with a dedicated racing 50 weight and see which one spins a bearing or has bottom end failure first.


Thanks for clearing that up. I always noticed a HUGE difference in the cranking speed of 5w30 oils VS the 20w 50 I used when the bearings were going. Its good to know it was all in my imaginatio..

 

[johnachak]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I don`t understand the easier starting thing. My car starts the exact same whether I`m using 20W50 or 5W30.

"Startup wear" etc is all liberal government CAFE propaganda. It simply doesn`t exist.

Take two identical cars,track the living [censored] out of them for hours WOT,one with a fuel economy 5W/0W20 and the other with a dedicated racing 50 weight and see which one spins a bearing or has bottom end failure first.


You do realize, I hope that 5w 20 oil is not recommended for Ford track cars. That is a totally different animal. In fact most "tracked at WOT cars are rebuilt regularly since no motor oil can stand up to that abuse. 5w 20 is spec'ed for those of us that drive on city streets or highways with speed limits.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: johnachak
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I don`t understand the easier starting thing. My car starts the exact same whether I`m using 20W50 or 5W30.

"Startup wear" etc is all liberal government CAFE propaganda. It simply doesn`t exist.

Take two identical cars,track the living [censored] out of them for hours WOT,one with a fuel economy 5W/0W20 and the other with a dedicated racing 50 weight and see which one spins a bearing or has bottom end failure first.


You do realize, I hope that 5w 20 oil is not recommended for Ford track cars. That is a totally different animal. In fact most "tracked at WOT cars are rebuilt regularly since no motor oil can stand up to that abuse. 5w 20 is spec'ed for those of us that drive on city streets or highways with speed limits.


Why buy a high performance sports/muscle car and drive it like a Prius?

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: johnachak
In fact most "tracked at WOT cars are rebuilt regularly since no motor oil can stand up to that abuse.


I know a guy who has a 94 Z32,all oem,tracks it regularly,has used Pennzoil yb 20W50 since brand new. Still has factory spec compression on all 6 cylinders and still has the original turbos. Car is nearing 300,000 miles. I think you might,um,be confusing my post with Nascar,which is not what I`m talking about.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: johnachak
I always noticed a HUGE difference in the cranking speed of 5w30 oils VS the 20w 50 I used when the bearings were going. Its good to know it was all in my imaginatio..


With the cars listed in your profile,I can understand why your motors were stuggling to turn over with a non-CAFE oil. Better stick with a 0W2/0W5/0W10/0W20 so you won`t be late to work every morning :^)