CAFE has Little to do with Motor Oil Viscosity Use
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Originally Posted By: bluesubie
I'm waiting for some evidence, and not merely opinion, to show that switch to thinner oils is not for CAFE.
I don't think you'll find such evidence. I don't know why you'd expect to, either. Thinner oils in races are selected to ensure less power loss. Thinner oils in the real world are selected to improve fuel mileage.
That's been going on for years, and I'm not sure why this is surprising to some people or why they single out the switch to 20 grades as the prime example. 10w-30 and 5w-30 became the standard recommendations years ago for the same reasons. The same Chicken Little mentality about it being too thin came about and the same complaints that it was just about fuel economy were heard.
Engines that used to use 40 grades didn't croak on 30s, and 20s have proven themselves, too.
I'm waiting for some evidence, and not merely opinion, to show that switch to thinner oils is not for CAFE.
I don't think you'll find such evidence. I don't know why you'd expect to, either. Thinner oils in races are selected to ensure less power loss. Thinner oils in the real world are selected to improve fuel mileage.
That's been going on for years, and I'm not sure why this is surprising to some people or why they single out the switch to 20 grades as the prime example. 10w-30 and 5w-30 became the standard recommendations years ago for the same reasons. The same Chicken Little mentality about it being too thin came about and the same complaints that it was just about fuel economy were heard.
Engines that used to use 40 grades didn't croak on 30s, and 20s have proven themselves, too.
All I can say is I've kept a record of fuel used and miles elapsed on my Honda since it was new. Going from 5W-20 to 5W-30 I can't tell any significant difference in fuel mileage. The engine doesn't seem to clatter as much with 5W-30, and I use it for towing my pop up camper. Still gets 32-33 MPG highway easily, not too shabby for a car that says 27 MPG highway is what I can expect.
I'll take my chances and be the heretic for going against the gospel according to Honda. According to some Honda experts, my engine is "specifically engineered" to use 5W-20, and I'm going to have oil starvation issues and additional wear from using such a thick oil.
I'll take my chances and be the heretic for going against the gospel according to Honda. According to some Honda experts, my engine is "specifically engineered" to use 5W-20, and I'm going to have oil starvation issues and additional wear from using such a thick oil.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Dave Sherman
I'll take my chances and be the heretic for going against the gospel according to Honda. According to some Honda experts, my engine is "specifically engineered" to use 5W-20, and I'm going to have oil starvation issues and additional wear from using such a thick oil.
If that were the case every engine built would have long ago seized when cold and oil is 15-20x thicker than hot...
I'll take my chances and be the heretic for going against the gospel according to Honda. According to some Honda experts, my engine is "specifically engineered" to use 5W-20, and I'm going to have oil starvation issues and additional wear from using such a thick oil.
If that were the case every engine built would have long ago seized when cold and oil is 15-20x thicker than hot...
Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: buster
If you look at Mobil's latest racing oil line, they are all 0w20/30 and one 0w50. The HT/HS #'s are not always that high either. There are other things to consider.
I guess you didn't read the fine print, did you? You can have one or the other but not both.
Quote:
Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30
Advanced full synthetic formula
specifically designed to maximize
horsepower under race
conditions.
Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50
Advanced full synthetic formula
specifically designed to maximize
engine protection under race
conditions.
BTW, where is that Mobil 1 0W20 racing you mentioned? I only see 0W-20 Advanced Fuel Economy.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf
Please clarify your statements.
They no longer sell the 0w20 racing oil to the public.
0W-30 designed to maximize
horsepower
0W-50 designed to maximize
engine protection
Sorry, can't make it simpler than that.
As for the 0W-20, you said:
Quote:
Mobil's latest racing oil line, they are all 0w20/30 and one 0w50
That is apparently not true as there are only 2 available: 0W-30 and 0W-50.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: buster
If you look at Mobil's latest racing oil line, they are all 0w20/30 and one 0w50. The HT/HS #'s are not always that high either. There are other things to consider.
I guess you didn't read the fine print, did you? You can have one or the other but not both.
Quote:
Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30
Advanced full synthetic formula
specifically designed to maximize
horsepower under race
conditions.
Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50
Advanced full synthetic formula
specifically designed to maximize
engine protection under race
conditions.
BTW, where is that Mobil 1 0W20 racing you mentioned? I only see 0W-20 Advanced Fuel Economy.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf
Please clarify your statements.
They no longer sell the 0w20 racing oil to the public.
0W-30 designed to maximize
horsepower
0W-50 designed to maximize
engine protection
Sorry, can't make it simpler than that.
As for the 0W-20, you said:
Quote:
Mobil's latest racing oil line, they are all 0w20/30 and one 0w50
That is apparently not true as there are only 2 available: 0W-30 and 0W-50.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: buster
Engines are lasting longer today than yesterday and many of them have had nothing but 20 grades. Case closed. Go home.
what are you talking about? This is BITOG and we obsess about splitting hairs after all.
Engines are lasting longer today than yesterday and many of them have had nothing but 20 grades. Case closed. Go home.
what are you talking about? This is BITOG and we obsess about splitting hairs after all.
AEHaas,
I'm curious. Do you drive your exotic cars like they are intended?
I'm curious. Do you drive your exotic cars like they are intended?
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
0W-30 designed to maximize
horsepower
0W-50 designed to maximize
engine protection
Sorry, can't make it simpler than that.
ummm...you probably want to include the rest of the recommendation for 0W50: under race conditions
Conditions matter, and an oil that offers "more protection" under race conditions isn't necessarily going to do so under normal operating conditions. Typically, the inverse is true. Viscosity selection is always a compromise to a degree.
0W-30 designed to maximize
horsepower
0W-50 designed to maximize
engine protection
Sorry, can't make it simpler than that.
ummm...you probably want to include the rest of the recommendation for 0W50: under race conditions
Conditions matter, and an oil that offers "more protection" under race conditions isn't necessarily going to do so under normal operating conditions. Typically, the inverse is true. Viscosity selection is always a compromise to a degree.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: buster
If you look at Mobil's latest racing oil line, they are all 0w20/30 and one 0w50. The HT/HS #'s are not always that high either. There are other things to consider.
I guess you didn't read the fine print, did you? You can have one or the other but not both.
Quote:
Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30
Advanced full synthetic formula
specifically designed to maximize
horsepower under race
conditions.
Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50
Advanced full synthetic formula
specifically designed to maximize
engine protection under race
conditions.
BTW, where is that Mobil 1 0W20 racing you mentioned? I only see 0W-20 Advanced Fuel Economy.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf
Please clarify your statements.
They no longer sell the 0w20 racing oil to the public.
0W-30 designed to maximize
horsepower
0W-50 designed to maximize
engine protection
Sorry, can't make it simpler than that.
As for the 0W-20, you said:
Quote:
Mobil's latest racing oil line, they are all 0w20/30 and one 0w50
That is apparently not true as there are only 2 available: 0W-30 and 0W-50.
You're saying a 0w50 > 0w30 in all applications just because the viscosity is higher? Not true.
Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: buster
If you look at Mobil's latest racing oil line, they are all 0w20/30 and one 0w50. The HT/HS #'s are not always that high either. There are other things to consider.
I guess you didn't read the fine print, did you? You can have one or the other but not both.
Quote:
Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30
Advanced full synthetic formula
specifically designed to maximize
horsepower under race
conditions.
Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50
Advanced full synthetic formula
specifically designed to maximize
engine protection under race
conditions.
BTW, where is that Mobil 1 0W20 racing you mentioned? I only see 0W-20 Advanced Fuel Economy.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf
Please clarify your statements.
They no longer sell the 0w20 racing oil to the public.
0W-30 designed to maximize
horsepower
0W-50 designed to maximize
engine protection
Sorry, can't make it simpler than that.
As for the 0W-20, you said:
Quote:
Mobil's latest racing oil line, they are all 0w20/30 and one 0w50
That is apparently not true as there are only 2 available: 0W-30 and 0W-50.
You're saying a 0w50 > 0w30 in all applications just because the viscosity is higher? Not true.
Originally Posted By: buster
You're saying a 0w50 > 0w30 in all applications just because the viscosity is higher? Not true.
Look, you are contradicting yourself.
Here is a recap for you:
You initially said that Mobil 1 went to 0w20 and 0w30 racing oils hinting that "thin is better".
I initially posted the whole part about 0w30 and 0w50 oils verbatim from their website that explained that Ow50 protects better in racing.
Then you asked for clarification. I simplified that to you.
Then you attacked me for dropping the "for racing" part.
Please reread your and my posts first before starting a fight here. We have a comprehension situation here.
You're saying a 0w50 > 0w30 in all applications just because the viscosity is higher? Not true.
Look, you are contradicting yourself.
Here is a recap for you:
You initially said that Mobil 1 went to 0w20 and 0w30 racing oils hinting that "thin is better".
I initially posted the whole part about 0w30 and 0w50 oils verbatim from their website that explained that Ow50 protects better in racing.
Then you asked for clarification. I simplified that to you.
Then you attacked me for dropping the "for racing" part.
Please reread your and my posts first before starting a fight here. We have a comprehension situation here.
Originally Posted By: JOD
ummm...you probably want to include the rest of the recommendation for 0W50: under race conditions
Conditions matter, and an oil that offers "more protection" under race conditions isn't necessarily going to do so under normal operating conditions. Typically, the inverse is true. Viscosity selection is always a compromise to a degree.
Did you read the whole exchange before posting? I don't think so, so please don't use my words out of context.
ummm...you probably want to include the rest of the recommendation for 0W50: under race conditions
Conditions matter, and an oil that offers "more protection" under race conditions isn't necessarily going to do so under normal operating conditions. Typically, the inverse is true. Viscosity selection is always a compromise to a degree.
Did you read the whole exchange before posting? I don't think so, so please don't use my words out of context.
No contradiction. One more time, lower viscosity oisl are now used in racing and with modern additives and good base oils NASCAR engines for exmaple run entire races on 0w30 oils. Years ago they ran the 15w50 stuff. Remember that Rusty Wallace article from a few years back? Apparently not. Comprehension....
http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/goss/2313.shtml
"Oh, that's the 0.5 weight stuff." I'm like, oh my gosh, and it's just going crazy. Headers are glowing red. You take the engine apart, and the bearings look brand new. So it is absolutely a myth that you have to run 50-weight oil in these cars nowadays."
"Oh, that's the 0.5 weight stuff." I'm like, oh my gosh, and it's just going crazy. Headers are glowing red. You take the engine apart, and the bearings look brand new. So it is absolutely a myth that you have to run 50-weight oil in these cars nowadays."
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: JOD
ummm...you probably want to include the rest of the recommendation for 0W50: under race conditions
Conditions matter, and an oil that offers "more protection" under race conditions isn't necessarily going to do so under normal operating conditions. Typically, the inverse is true. Viscosity selection is always a compromise to a degree.
Did you read the whole exchange before posting? I don't think so, so please don't use my words out of context.
I did, but in the interest of clarity I still think it's important (and you should have half-quoted the recommendation. It just perpetuates this believe that race oils are some how "better" (even if that wasn't your intent).
That said, I also think that WRT racing and race oils, it's still a matter of compromise, even as far as protection goes. It depends on the conditions and what you're doing. A single 1/4 at the track or extended road course driving or a Pikes Peak TT. There's still no "one-size fits all".
Originally Posted By: JOD
ummm...you probably want to include the rest of the recommendation for 0W50: under race conditions
Conditions matter, and an oil that offers "more protection" under race conditions isn't necessarily going to do so under normal operating conditions. Typically, the inverse is true. Viscosity selection is always a compromise to a degree.
Did you read the whole exchange before posting? I don't think so, so please don't use my words out of context.
I did, but in the interest of clarity I still think it's important (and you should have half-quoted the recommendation. It just perpetuates this believe that race oils are some how "better" (even if that wasn't your intent).
That said, I also think that WRT racing and race oils, it's still a matter of compromise, even as far as protection goes. It depends on the conditions and what you're doing. A single 1/4 at the track or extended road course driving or a Pikes Peak TT. There's still no "one-size fits all".
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
0W-30 designed to maximize
horsepower
0W-50 designed to maximize
engine protection
Sorry, can't make it simpler than that.
I would hope not. It's already too simple to be accurate.
Thicker oil only protects better if the oil temps and bearing clearances require it. Otherwise, it's worse.
0W-30 designed to maximize
horsepower
0W-50 designed to maximize
engine protection
Sorry, can't make it simpler than that.
I would hope not. It's already too simple to be accurate.
Thicker oil only protects better if the oil temps and bearing clearances require it. Otherwise, it's worse.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I would hope not. It's already too simple to be accurate.
Agreed. Marketing statements are not engineering gospel.
I would hope not. It's already too simple to be accurate.
Agreed. Marketing statements are not engineering gospel.
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