BlackStone - Oil Manufacturer Doesn't Matter - Discussion

[JAG]

They didn't measure wear of parts. They measured the concentration of metals in oil samples without the ability to accurately quantify particles above a certain size range. The metal particles in the oil sample also may be biased toward the smaller particle sizes relative to all particles that actually were created within the engine. This is due to effects of particle settling (bigger settle out faster) and bigger being more likely to be trapped in the filter.

UOAs are also notoriously poor for predicting whether deposits were occurring in the engine.

Their results are interesting, but the limitations must be understood. The following testing is more interesting, more precise, and covers more performance aspects: https://www.ilma.org/PDF/ILMANews/2017/AAAreport.pdf

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by JAG
They didn't measure wear of parts. They measured the concentration of metals in oil samples without the ability to accurately quantify particles above a certain size range. The metal particles in the oil sample also may be biased toward the smaller particle sizes relative to all particles that actually were created within the engine. This is due to effects of particle settling (bigger settle out faster) and bigger being more likely to be trapped in the filter.

UOAs are also notoriously poor for predicting whether deposits were occurring in the engine.

Their results are interesting, but the limitations must be understood. The following testing is more interesting, more precise, and covers more performance aspects: https://www.ilma.org/PDF/ILMANews/2017/AAAreport.pdf

Good input.

 

[Shannow]

MRV - is the ability of the oil to flow into the pick-up and hence to the suction side of the POSTIIVE DISPLACEMENT pump
CCS - Cold Cranking Simulator, ability for the engine to be cranked.

For a 5W, these are at -35C and -30C respectively.

The oils must be labelled as the lowest "W"rating that they achieve.

In sub zero temperatures (C), there will be no "flow" difference between any of the 5Ws, as it is SO FAR above their respective test temperatures. Gallery filling times are going to be the same.

In sub zero (F) temperatures, the oils are still 20Fs above the CCS, and 30Fs higher than the pumpability, so difference should be non-existent there too.

Although as previously explained, they are allowed to lose a W grade in service, which I would assume the dino is more likely to do.

 

[StevieC]

Seems you missed this Shannow... I didn't equate flow to better crank ability and clarified this to Kschachn

Originally Posted by StevieC
I didn't say cold flow initially. I said that they test for that performance after you started the questioning... I didn't say that is why I experienced easier starting, that was you connecting those dots.

Originally Posted by kschachn
So you are claiming that one oil that meets the requirements for a 5W is superior to another that meets the same cold-start spec?


Originally Posted by StevieC
What I'm saying is that a 5w30 Synthetic versus the 5w30 conventional yielded easier starting (faster cranking) and less engine noise and faster initial engine RPM immediately after start-up in the subzero February weather here in the same engine in the same temperatures one winter after another.


Originally Posted by kschachn
Blackstone doesn't report anything about oxidation protection, "better flow" is meaningless, I don't even know what parameter they'd report for "cleanliness" and "stout"?? Lol, how is stoutness reported by Blackstone?


Originally Posted by StevieC
Better flow is meaningless. Hmmmm Don't they test for that during cold weather performance? Isn't faster flow on start-up a good thing in sub zero temperatures?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Seems you missed this Shannow... I didn't equate flow to better crank ability and clarified this to Kschachn


Didn't miss it...was trying to work out WHAT you were equating the noticeably easier starting to with the reference to flow and "better" and "minimum standards"


Originally Posted by StevieC
Better flow is meaningless. Hmmmm Don't they test for that during cold weather performance? Isn't faster flow on start-up a good thing in sub zero temperatures?


Insert my post after this then...

CCS is directly related to cranking RPMs...and startability

If you are starting 20C or 20F ABOVE the CCS test point, then it's entirely immaterial to your perceived (placebo ???) feel on how well a car started versus the year before.

 

[OilUzer]

Originally Posted by StevieC
What I'm saying is that a 5w30 Synthetic versus the 5w30 conventional yielded easier starting (faster cranking) and less engine noise and higher immediate engine RPM within the first 10 seconds immediately after start-up in the subzero February weather here in the same engine in the same temperatures one winter after another.


synthetic oil performance is impressive but I'm more impressed with your memory

 

[Oily_Thing]

So, is there any difference between Mobil 1, Mobil 1 EP, and Mobil 1 AP?

 

[ka9mnx]

Originally Posted by Oily_Thing
So, is there any difference between Mobil 1, Mobil 1 EP, and Mobil 1 AP?

Check the Mobil1 web site. There they list the specs to compare.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Originally Posted by StevieC
Surely by now they would have been sued to oblivion by the 25K crowd if it were a problem.

Surely just conjecture, Stevie. Car owners for the first roughly 100k CAN'T run 25k OCIs because even AMSOil says to respect the manufacturer's recommended OCIs. Then, from maybe 100K to 200K, only a very teeny fraction will spend $40/gallon for oil for their 100k+ mile vehicle. Then, anything after 200k, the vehicle is worth very little according to Blue/Black Book/Insurance and the owner is willing to replace it anyways if there is a failure. So the "sued to oblivion.... if it were a problem" may only consist of 10-50 engine failures attributable to the oil, which is certainly a small enough check to write for a company with an income pyramid like AMSOil

When viewed thru the lens of the all important warranty claims from manufacturers, EVERY oil is on the same measuring stick... the manufacturer's recommended OCI. So yes, ALL oils are the same during the warranty period. They either meet the spec, or they don't; the owner follows the OCI schedule, or doesn't. Only one pair of those four choices results in the owner being made whole by the vehicle manufacturer.


The "sued to oblivion" argument is totally irrelevant because it is extremely hard and expensive to prove the oil was the culprit. Also, how come Takata or automakers that used their airbags haven't been sued to oblivion yet? People have died from their airbags.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Oily_Thing
So, is there any difference between Mobil 1, Mobil 1 EP, and Mobil 1 AP?


The last two, as far as basing, not so much. Both have more PAO in several grades than plain-Jane Mobil 1. I'm sure EP is more heavily fortified for its longer drain interval than EP.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by StevieC
What I'm saying is that a 5w30 Synthetic versus the 5w30 conventional yielded easier starting (faster cranking) and less engine noise and higher immediate engine RPM within the first 10 seconds immediately after start-up in the subzero February weather here in the same engine in the same temperatures one winter after another.


synthetic oil performance is impressive but I'm more impressed with your memory

It's my OCD.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Originally Posted by StevieC
Surely by now they would have been sued to oblivion by the 25K crowd if it were a problem.

Surely just conjecture, Stevie. Car owners for the first roughly 100k CAN'T run 25k OCIs because even AMSOil says to respect the manufacturer's recommended OCIs. Then, from maybe 100K to 200K, only a very teeny fraction will spend $40/gallon for oil for their 100k+ mile vehicle. Then, anything after 200k, the vehicle is worth very little according to Blue/Black Book/Insurance and the owner is willing to replace it anyways if there is a failure. So the "sued to oblivion.... if it were a problem" may only consist of 10-50 engine failures attributable to the oil, which is certainly a small enough check to write for a company with an income pyramid like AMSOil

When viewed thru the lens of the all important warranty claims from manufacturers, EVERY oil is on the same measuring stick... the manufacturer's recommended OCI. So yes, ALL oils are the same during the warranty period. They either meet the spec, or they don't; the owner follows the OCI schedule, or doesn't. Only one pair of those four choices results in the owner being made whole by the vehicle manufacturer.


The "sued to oblivion" argument is totally irrelevant because it is extremely hard and expensive to prove the oil was the culprit. Also, how come Takata or automakers that used their airbags haven't been sued to oblivion yet? People have died from their airbags.


REALLY?

https://www.google.ca/search?client...sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
First result in this Google Search is: https://www.autoairbagsettlement.com/en

Even if there aren't lawsuits where are the scores of angry members of forums on the internet? Where are the articles in mainstream media warning people? There are lots of sources to judge by and none of those exist for Amsoil but do exist for Takata.

 

[KrisZ]

Then what do you mean by being "sued to oblivion". I never said Takata wasn't sued, but they were not affected by this at all and they are still the largest supplier of the airbags. To me "sued to oblivion" means they go out of business.

So then the question is, how do you know Amsoil wasn't sued? It is a very small company, so obviously they will not receive any media attention, but just because they weren't "sued to oblivion, doesn't mean they weren't sued.
So then the question is, why would you even bring this up as an argument?

 

[kschachn]

Amsoil (or anyone else for that matter) would only be sued if it was an oil-related failure and they improperly denied warranty coverage. If there was a failure and the manufacturer's warranty covered the repair then there would be no lawsuit. Lawsuits wouldn't necessarily equate to failures, but warranty claims could. And that would be even harder to elucidate than a suit.

But I seriously doubt there are many of either one of those for any major oil manufacturer.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Amsoil (or anyone else for that matter) would only be sued if it was an oil-related failure and they improperly denied warranty coverage. If there was a failure and the manufacturer's warranty covered the repair then there would be no lawsuit. Lawsuits wouldn't necessarily equate to failures, but warranty claims would be closer. And that would be even harder to elucidate than a suit.

But I seriously doubt there are many of either one of those for any major oil manufacturer.


I understand that, but Stevie brings this up when defending Amsoil's 25k mile OCIs. Fact is that any lawsuit settlement or warranty claim would be internal and closely guarded information by Amsoil and it surely doesn't constitute being sued to oblivion.

 

[Shannow]

This silly "sued to oblivion" hyperbolae is becoming ridiculous these days.

The logical fallacy that it MUST be superior because it doesn't certify the oils, and proof of that superiority is that the company is still in business and hasn't been "sued to oblivion" is farcical, and seriously brings into question to credibility of the person making the (ongoing) argument in this manner.

(BTW...Something must have happened for them to stipulate an average 35.7MPH for the OCI for them to have included that in their service life warranty...that wasn't there originally)

Besides, what's the risk with advertising 25,000 mile oil changes, when your customers, who value the product enough to pay for it AND pay for UOA use it for service intervals LOWER than your competitors ???

 

[StevieC]

I think you got kicked in the head by a Joey or something because now you are connecting stuff I never did.

Originally Posted by Shannow
This silly "sued to oblivion" hyperbolae is becoming ridiculous these days.

The logical fallacy that it MUST be superior because it doesn't certify the oils, and proof of that superiority is that the company is still in business and hasn't been "sued to oblivion" is farcical, and seriously brings into question to credibility of the person making the (ongoing) argument in this manner.


I never said that it must be superior because they don't certify oils. I said they chose not to certify the signature series oil because that is what they told me in an e-mail I posted. Not sure how much clearer I can make that. Further I told you many times they have a line of certified OE oils for those folks like yourself that are hellbent on using something that is certified even though in the U.S. it's not required thanks to the Moss-Magnuson act. (And yes that act doesn't exist down under or in Canada I know, so lets not go there). I also pointed out that it has been our families experience where failure did happen to engine internals where regular maintenance was performed they have never asked to see service records or receipts for oil used or oil changes because no sludge was or other evidence was visible that would suggest that maintenance was lacking. Heck I even posted in another thread that in the Chrysler manual it says "Warranty will not be denied by failure to provide receipts".

As for being sued into oblivion, funny how that happens with snake oils out there that make false claims and the FTC comes down hard on them in the U.S. or consumers sue yet that has never happened in 40+ years in business for Amsoil. Hmmmm sounds like hyperbole to me. Oh yeah and ever increasing sales. Hmmmm, How is GM doing about lying about ignition switches? How is Takata doing about lying? Oh that's right they have class actions against them for this. How about any other company lying? Lawsuits... How about emission testing lying? Lawsuits again... You are seeing what you want to see. I think because of the head injury but that is speculation.

You done now trashing my thread that had nothing to do with Amsoil until you got on your crusade?

 

[Shannow]

Crusade ?

I simply stated that ALL the oils handsomely beat the wear test, and used the type of language that Amsoil used to demonstrate it...that's all.

As to who first brought that brand into the thread (plus claims of superior), that all predates my involvement in the thread...don't believe me ? go back and read your thread.

 

[Dak27]

Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
As much as I like chasing oils that are great on paper, I believe BlackStone and the LiquiMoly paper posted a couple days ago are correct, especially when combined with some wisdom from dnewton3. Once you've got an oil that meets the required specifications AND do routine maintenance on the recommended schedule for your usage, the only real difference is how much you lighten your own wallet by overspending on fluids.

To my scientific side, the 99% of vehicle owners who do not frequent this site prove this to be true- they care not about moly, or boron, or magnesium, etc levels in their oil, nor that they used an OCOD or Tearolator.... and neither do their engines as long as they somewhat respect the maintenance schedules for their vehicles. There are literally MILLIONS of GM LSs, Toyota 4 cyls, Ford Modulars, etc that have never seen synthetic oil or anything more premium than a Motorcraft or Fram EG filter that have made it over 200k miles.

Sure, we all want to justify our OCD and overspending because we "think" we're extending our vehicles' lifetimes, and some may minimally influence theirs, but not significantly. I still believe that 99% of engines that fail at less than 200k miles only due so because of two factors: first, gross maintenance negligence; or second, gross engineering negligence on the part of the engine manufacturer. No manufacturing can overcome a refusal to maintain the machinery, and no oil can overcome a manufacturing defect or oversight in design.



I agree. I admit I'm a novice on the subject of VOAs & UOA. I've been running UOAs on my Semi Truck, about every three PMs. I follow my engine manufacturer's recommendations for OCIs, and I've used only oils and filters that meet their specifications. What I've seen via UOAs has convinced me to buy according to lowest price and easiest availability.


I've used 3 different big name oils in my engine, conventional 15W40, and semi-synthetic 10W30, and my wear numbers have always came back well within the "Normal" range. And honestly, I didn't see any noticeable difference between the first two brands I tried.

I'm now using a big name semi-synthetic 15W40 and 10W30, only because it costs me less per gallon, and my wear numbers on the 15W40 looked ever-so-slightly better vs the comventionals, but still it's nothing to write home about.


I haven't had a UOA ran on their semi-synthetic 10W30, but I'll be sending off a sample after my next PM.


And by viewing UOAs on passenger cars here, I'm beginning to believe if you're running normal OCIs, the difference between conventional oils and synthetic oils are negligible. I do have synthetic oil put in my wife's car, because I view her driving habits as falling under "Severe Duty", -Lol!. But I'm now using the cheapest big name synthetic that I can buy.

Both of my daughters have late model cars with 4 cylinder motors, which are under warranty. Both Dealerships use Mobil 1, so that's what goes in their cars.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by StevieC
You done now trashing my thread that had nothing to do with Amsoil until you got on your crusade?

Shannow trashing threads? Isn't that the standard operating procedure on BITOG?

These are very large samples and the random error should be very small. This particular engine obviously doesn't wear fast, which makes it harder to compare the oils with it. Nevertheless, 0 ppm lead and 0 ppm chromium for Amsoil are impressive, indicating virtually no bearing and ring wear. It shows that the blenders at Amsoil know what they are doing. On the other hand, 6 ppm lead for Castrol is three times the average, which we've also seen with Castrol TWS 10W-60 and German Castrol 0W-30. It shows that blenders at Castrol don't know what they are doing as usual. That's why I never use Castrol. I would use Amsoil if it was cheaper and more readily available.

It also shows once again that thicker oil (Rotella) doesn't result in less wear. It certainly does result in lower fuel economy and horsepower though.