As the world turns - Recent Canadian self-defence

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Originally Posted By: xxch4osxx
Things definitely need to change up here. It is pathetic how you can't defend yourself in a life threatening situation without worrying about going to jail.
+1, anywhere...not just up there, anywhere you should be allowed to defend yourself, especially in your own house.
 
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In the USA the police have no "legal obligation" to protect you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia Therefore you have this happening: There were a record amount of CCW permits issued in Ohio in 2013. For the second straight year, county sheriff offices in Ohio issued a record number of concealed carry handgun licenses. Sheriffs issued 96,972 new licenses statewide last year and 48,370 renewals, or 145,342 total concealed carry licenses.Mar 8, 2014
 
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I guess the issue with firearms as self-defence in Canada, is are you obligated to let the bad guys escape once they realize you have a gun? In theory, the average person at home shouldn't have a firearm ready to use in self defence. Guns are supposed to be locked and ammo stored in a separate location, so a home invader wouldn't expect to meet armed resistance. So just brandishing would've probably stopped both robberies, so what's the justification to actually shoot someone after they want to leave?
 

OVERKILL

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Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I guess the issue with firearms as self-defence in Canada, is are you obligated to let the bad guys escape once they realize you have a gun? In theory, the average person at home shouldn't have a firearm ready to use in self defence. Guns are supposed to be locked and ammo stored in a separate location, so a home invader wouldn't expect to meet armed resistance. So just brandishing would've probably stopped both robberies, so what's the justification to actually shoot someone after they want to leave?
Actually, that's a bit of a (common) misinterpretation of the rules. If you have a gun safe (and most do) then you can store both the gun and ammo together. If that's in your bedroom closet, then they are very accessible and this is perfectly legal. Storage separate from ammunition is only necessary when the gun is not in a safe. And yes, I believe you can't shoot if somebody is retreating, however, if they are armed, and in your residence and you fear for your life, you can most certainly shoot them. You'll have a court date but that's better than ending up dead IMHO.
 
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I guess the issue with firearms as self-defence in Canada, is are you obligated to let the bad guys escape once they realize you have a gun? In theory, the average person at home shouldn't have a firearm ready to use in self defence. Guns are supposed to be locked and ammo stored in a separate location, so a home invader wouldn't expect to meet armed resistance. So just brandishing would've probably stopped both robberies, so what's the justification to actually shoot someone after they want to leave?
Actually, that's a bit of a (common) misinterpretation of the rules. If you have a gun safe (and most do) then you can store both the gun and ammo together. If that's in your bedroom closet, then they are very accessible and this is perfectly legal. Storage separate from ammunition is only necessary when the gun is not in a safe. And yes, I believe you can't shoot if somebody is retreating, however, if they are armed, and in your residence and you fear for your life, you can most certainly shoot them. You'll have a court date but that's better than ending up dead IMHO.
Overkill is right. You can also have a firearm out of a safe for "cleaning" Now how long you "clean" it, is up to you. I was told that by a former O.P.P sergeant. I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
 
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CT8
The Subjects needn't defend themselves as it is the governments duty.
At least in Australia, it has been determined that the Police/Govt have zero responsibility to protect, their role is solving crime.
From the beginning the police were there to solve crimes of money/property for the rich. Not protect the unwashed masses.
 

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It seems to me that this is just a response to the laws of nature. I'll expound a bit. Nature abhors a vacuum. Does not matter what kind it is; the natural forces of physics, fluid dynamics, human action, etc all try to fill in what is void. In terms of self-defense, it comes down to the "haves" and "have nots". I have a morals and ethics, therefore I have things of value (family and possessions), which I protect with rational levels of defense (locked doors, safe storage, and firearms). Someone attacks my domain or family, I'm going into full defense mode. Someone may die; probably not going to be me. Unfortunately, I'll have to defend my actions despite a criminal's intent. And in his place, another criminal will step in; his void is filled. I'd be willing to move from the USA to another country, IF I thought there were any "better" place to live. If ALL morons, criminals and general miscreants could be heaped into the center of this land-mass, I'd move way north or way south. If we could rid Canada or Mexico of all problem folks, they would be great places to live. Or we could rid the USA of undesirables, and toss them elsewhere. But alas, creating a void only causes nature to want to fill it. You cannot escape stupidity; stupidity (and its cousins of greed, malice, sloth, wickedness, etc) follows sanity everywhere it resides and tries to muck up an otherwise perfectly decent life. Just my .02 here.
 
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Nice going,DAVE! The vacuum theory explains the never-ending supply of idiots and criminals. Without them, life on earth would be a paradise, and we can't have that here, can we? As to the conundra of our Canadian and Australian friends, I have this question. How did this sad state of affairs come to be? If you folks also live in democratic societies, why haven't you been able to "vote the bums out"? Not being critical, just seeking to understand.
 
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Originally Posted By: 2cool
As to the conundra of our Canadian and Australian friends, I have this question. How did this sad state of affairs come to be?
I often stand in Windsor, ON and look across the Detroit River to the city of Detroit and ask the same thing ..... "How did this sad state of affairs come to be?" There is a sad state of affairs on one side of the river and I'm not so sure it's on OUR side. I feel no conundra here. Very few of the people I know want/need arms. If we did we'd have them.
 
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I cannot even begin to imagine living like that. Being charged with a crime for defending yourself in your own home is way beyond pathetic. I thank my creator above every day for being born American.
 
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Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
Originally Posted By: 2cool
As to the conundra of our Canadian and Australian friends, I have this question. How did this sad state of affairs come to be?
I often stand in Windsor, ON and look across the Detroit River to the city of Detroit and ask the same thing ..... "How did this sad state of affairs come to be?" There is a sad state of affairs on one side of the river and I'm not so sure it's on OUR side. I feel no conundra here. Very few of the people I know want/need arms. If we did we'd have them.
I feel no conundra either and I don't know anyone here in NZ who owns a firearm for self-defence. Our cops continue to work unarmed but they do have Tasers now. Our self-defence law in NZ is much like any other country - you can use proportional force to defend yourself, including a firearm, and continue as long as the threat is present. But that obviously doesn't include shooting at the car the suspects are fleeing in. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10668648 I'm not clear on why the victim in the news article was charged with shooting the assailant in the leg. The details seem to have been left out and I have to wonder if that was intentional.
 
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Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
Originally Posted By: 2cool
As to the conundra of our Canadian and Australian friends, I have this question. How did this sad state of affairs come to be?
I often stand in Windsor, ON and look across the Detroit River to the city of Detroit and ask the same thing ..... "How did this sad state of affairs come to be?" There is a sad state of affairs on one side of the river and I'm not so sure it's on OUR side. I feel no conundra here. Very few of the people I know want/need arms. If we did we'd have them.
7 million gun owners in this country would say otherwise.
 
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Originally Posted By: xxch4osxx
Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
Originally Posted By: 2cool
As to the conundra of our Canadian and Australian friends, I have this question. How did this sad state of affairs come to be?
I often stand in Windsor, ON and look across the Detroit River to the city of Detroit and ask the same thing ..... "How did this sad state of affairs come to be?" There is a sad state of affairs on one side of the river and I'm not so sure it's on OUR side. I feel no conundra here. Very few of the people I know want/need arms. If we did we'd have them.
7 million gun owners in this country would say otherwise.
They don't "say it" with their votes .....
 
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Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
Originally Posted By: xxch4osxx
Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
Originally Posted By: 2cool
As to the conundra of our Canadian and Australian friends, I have this question. How did this sad state of affairs come to be?
I often stand in Windsor, ON and look across the Detroit River to the city of Detroit and ask the same thing ..... "How did this sad state of affairs come to be?" There is a sad state of affairs on one side of the river and I'm not so sure it's on OUR side. I feel no conundra here. Very few of the people I know want/need arms. If we did we'd have them.
7 million gun owners in this country would say otherwise.
They don't "say it" with their votes .....
Why don't you help them out ?
 
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Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
Originally Posted By: xxch4osxx
Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
Originally Posted By: 2cool
As to the conundra of our Canadian and Australian friends, I have this question. How did this sad state of affairs come to be?
I often stand in Windsor, ON and look across the Detroit River to the city of Detroit and ask the same thing ..... "How did this sad state of affairs come to be?" There is a sad state of affairs on one side of the river and I'm not so sure it's on OUR side. I feel no conundra here. Very few of the people I know want/need arms. If we did we'd have them.
7 million gun owners in this country would say otherwise.
They don't "say it" with their votes .....
Many are tired of the inaction and lip service paid by all the political parties and don't bother voting anymore. The current party in place has done very little of what they promised as well.
 

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Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
Originally Posted By: 2cool
As to the conundra of our Canadian and Australian friends, I have this question. How did this sad state of affairs come to be?
I often stand in Windsor, ON and look across the Detroit River to the city of Detroit and ask the same thing ..... "How did this sad state of affairs come to be?" There is a sad state of affairs on one side of the river and I'm not so sure it's on OUR side. I feel no conundra here. Very few of the people I know want/need arms. If we did we'd have them.
It came to be by criminals owning guns and not enough good upstanding people protecting themselves. Of course there is a lot of "gang on gang" violence in a city like Detroit ... probably most conducted with illegally owned guns. That's a whole other issue going on.
 
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Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
...Very few of the people I know want/need arms...
It came to be by criminals owning guns and not enough good upstanding people protecting themselves. ..
Well, wouldn't you agree that is more the result rather than the cause? It "came to be" for a numerous historic, legislative and cultural reasons that are unique to the US but not present in other first-world countries. And with majority support of the broader definition of the second amendment, the USA has made it's bed and must continue to lie in it. The one reason I am glad that handguns are very hard to obtain here in NZ is that in my opinion very few humans have the emotional control to judge threats, react fast enough and then operate such a fast-acting and lethal tool within the bounds of self-defence law. Many people change personalities (for the worst) the moment they get in their car or even post on a message board. I don't want them armed as well. And, I don't want handguns loose in the community, especially with our burglary rate. So don't worry about "us" not having broader self-defence laws, ours already fit within the relative safety of our lives.
 
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Originally Posted By: Doog
In the USA the police have no "legal obligation" to protect you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia Therefore you have this happening: There were a record amount of CCW permits issued in Ohio in 2013. For the second straight year, county sheriff offices in Ohio issued a record number of concealed carry handgun licenses. Sheriffs issued 96,972 new licenses statewide last year and 48,370 renewals, or 145,342 total concealed carry licenses.Mar 8, 2014
Try getting a permit in DC!
 

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Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
...Very few of the people I know want/need arms...
It came to be by criminals owning guns and not enough good upstanding people protecting themselves. ..
Well, wouldn't you agree that is more the result rather than the cause? It "came to be" for a numerous historic, legislative and cultural reasons that are unique to the US but not present in other first-world countries. And with majority support of the broader definition of the second amendment, the USA has made it's bed and must continue to lie in it.
Gotta disagree with your reasoning. If only law abiding, upstanding citizens had guns, and no criminals could own, have access or use guns, then there would be much lower gun crime in the US. The only shred of agreement I might have with you is that in the US everyone is free ... until you break the laws, then you start loosing freedoms like owning a firearm. But laws never really stop real criminals, only the upstanding citizens that obey laws.
 
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