Money Doesn't Make a Better Person.....

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Some research on poverty and its long term effects, including social, biological, physical and mental. This will be helpful for those who blame the poor for being poor.

In absence of social programs to assist, the children start off at a disadvantage. Social programs can reverse that...

http://www.nature.com/news/poverty-shrinks-brains-from-birth-1.17227?WT.mc_id=TWT_NatureNews
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/01/150129104117.htm
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2009/04/poverty-changes-brain-reduces-childrens-learning

Availability of healthy foods causes health issues. Fauna destruction and passing it to children

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-guts-microbiome-changes-diet/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4074336/

Poverty causes early aging

http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/22944-b...poor-in-detroit

Being poor makes you more altruistic so you do not accumulate wealth.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2012/02...ry.html?camp=pm





And to be clear, none of that is to say it's impossible to climb out of poverty! Of course it's possible, and people do it all the time.

Again, this isn't about what's possible or impossible. This is about trends.

 

[Alfred_B]

Of course it is not about the impossibility. It is about the likelihood and the factors determining it.

Essentially, it has to start at prenatal stage as a fetus and then nurtured when the child is born through formative years.

The Scandinavians have managed to do it. If we have enough empathy and common sense, we can do it, too.

 

[doitmyself]

cashmoney, I see the difference of your opinion answered in your own posts.

I, too, share the chest thumping upbringing of an post WWII immigrant father who came to the US penniless and climbed the ladder of American success. He instilled his VALUES in me and I onto my children. We ARE the American Dream.

One camp here believes ALL have equal opportunity to pull on their bootstraps, the other doesn't.

First you state: " literally millions of people that have immigrated to the US very recently and have wildly succeeded by dint of hard work, disciplined thoughtful child rearing, and most importantly celebrating intellectual and professional achievement. A community of people gets the behaviors that they celebrate as a community. Celebrate and make sacrosanct intellectual and professional achievement in your culture and that is the behavior you get."

You repeat: " nothing but hope and a willingness to do any job(s) to earn their way. They gave up everything to come to a place where their kids had a chance to get a great education. It was made very clear to me that I needed to fly straight and achieve. Any other behavior was not acceptable.

First, you say that your parents had good values and passed them on to you. Second, you state that good communities beget good people.

How do people that do NOT grow up with good values, raised by bad parents in a community that lives and preaches BAD VALUES, pull themselves up by their bootstraps the SAME as you? Are they born with these good values (instinct), or are they learned?

Values refers to honesty, work ethic, responsibility,integrity, etc.. On one hand you say that good community = good people and YOUR story is built on growing up with in good values. Then, you expect people growing up in bad communities, espousing bad values to be able to follow the same path as you and your family.

Your argument is not logical. Because you achieved success under your circumstances, others should achieve success under different circumstances??

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Originally Posted By: cashmoney

Yes people are born into poor uneducated families (like I was) but in the USA being born poor is a minor handicap for those who don't mind hard work and seriously want to better themselves.


Are you kidding?

The class you were born, the people you know and luck are the determinants how well you do wealth wise. Hard work is the myth fed to us. Who do you think works harder -- a person with three part time jobs paying minimum wage or the Donald?


Sorry I cannot agree. Who you are born to IMO, has little to do with where you'll end up unless you are looking at genetics. A doctors child is probably more genetically gifted and that determines how much they will make as adults. Given equal smarts, just cause your Daddy is a doctor doesn't mean much and in some ways, its a hinderance. I know of many rich families where the kids are just plain lazy, knowing Daddy has them covered. In Minnesota, the people from around Lake Minnetonka even have a term for this (but I cannot remember the term...lol).

 

[Alfred_B]

Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Originally Posted By: cashmoney

Yes people are born into poor uneducated families (like I was) but in the USA being born poor is a minor handicap for those who don't mind hard work and seriously want to better themselves.


Are you kidding?

The class you were born, the people you know and luck are the determinants how well you do wealth wise. Hard work is the myth fed to us. Who do you think works harder -- a person with three part time jobs paying minimum wage or the Donald?


Sorry I cannot agree. Who you are born to IMO, has little to do with where you'll end up unless you are looking at genetics. A doctors child is probably more genetically gifted and that determines how much they will make as adults. Given equal smarts, just cause your Daddy is a doctor doesn't mean much and in some ways, its a hinderance. I know of many rich families where the kids are just plain lazy, knowing Daddy has them covered. In Minnesota, the people from around Lake Minnetonka even have a term for this (but I cannot remember the term...lol).


Not the genetics again....

A few posts above I have placed a few links to scientific studies about poverty and its effects on fetuses and the children after they are born. How the structure of poverty affects and perpetuates poverty for generations.

It's a good read, far better than anecdotal or speculative arguments without actual basis.

 

[Mr Nice]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Having a negative outlook in life will doom your success

I hope you are not a school teacher and reinforcing these negative ideologies planted into the minds of young children.

I am an educator, actually. But don't let that give you a negative outlook, because that will doom your success!


As a educator, do you educate your low income students how to apply for food stamps, SNAP, WIC, EBT, ...etc on their 18th birthday because they have the deck stacked against them ?

Do you also teach them to continue the 'cradle to grave' assistance from the government because of the very bad, successful, affluent folks that worked hard in their lives and accomplished great things.

Teachers and politicians will pander this income inequality argument and keep people on the welfare plantation for generations to come.

 

[Alfred_B]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice

Teachers and politicians will pander this income inequality argument and keep people on the welfare plantation for generations to come.


All talk and no substance. And no evidence.

What is your suggestion?

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Having a negative outlook in life will doom your success

I hope you are not a school teacher and reinforcing these negative ideologies planted into the minds of young children.

I am an educator, actually. But don't let that give you a negative outlook, because that will doom your success!


As a educator, do you educate your low income students how to apply for food stamps, SNAP, WIC, EBT, ...etc on their 18th birthday because they have the deck stacked against them ?

Do you also teach them to continue the 'cradle to grave' assistance from the government because of the very bad, successful, affluent folks that worked hard in their lives and accomplished great things.

Teachers and politicians will pander this income inequality argument and keep people on the welfare plantation for generations to come.





He probably should teach a course on the realities of their situation. Just to lay it all out in the open, all the disadvantages stacked against them. If nothing else it might encourage them to vote, but I'm sure some group of old rich guys will divide up the voting districts to dilute their influence...
Atleast from my vantage point, many laws, and the inequality in education funding, seems to be designed to keep poor people poor. I don't know if there is some plan to do this or if its instinctual for people in decision making positions to set up the rules to favour their own kind and kin?
I think a couple generations of equal education funding would go along way to reduce the poverty cycle. Perhaps add something as socialist as paying new poor parents $20 a week to attend parenting courses, on how to be a good parents?
$400 a kid invested on something like that could repay itself 100 times over a lifetime of that person.

 

[javacontour]

I guess I don't see the unequal spending.

I compared my rural IL district where I grew up to East St Louis. By every measure on the School District Report Card, ESL gets more money per student, has better student to teacher ratios, AND has more teachers with more advanced degrees.

So what that means is we are spending more money per student, more teachers and teachers with better qualifications and we are not getting the same outcomes.

Students drop out and/or they don't do well on the tests that measure student performance.

Attendance and staying in school can't be fixed by throwing more money and more teachers at the problem. You have to have parents willing to make education a priority and keep their children in school.

 

[javacontour]

Take a look at the report card information:

https://illinoisreportcard.com/School.as...500821890220043

It's been a few years since I last looked. Prior to 2013, ESL had better than the state averages with respect to student to teacher ratios. It's gone off the cliff the last two years.

However, they are still spending more per student than the state average. Yet they are not even getting state average results.

On average, 19% of students are absent any given day. How do you get an education when 1 in 5 students are not in class?

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
I guess I don't see the unequal spending.

I compared my rural IL district where I grew up to East St Louis. By every measure on the School District Report Card, ESL gets more money per student, has better student to teacher ratios, AND has more teachers with more advanced degrees.

So what that means is we are spending more money per student, more teachers and teachers with better qualifications and we are not getting the same outcomes.

Attendance and staying in school can't be fixed by throwing more money and more teachers at the problem. You have to have parents willing to make education a priority and keep their children in school.

Agree.

This is more importance than throwing more money to underachieved schools.

The best high-schools in Orange County, CA spent several thousands dollar less per student than county average, the worse schools spent several thousands dollar more per student than county average. But the results are completely opposite.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
As a educator, do you educate your low income students how to apply for food stamps, SNAP, WIC, EBT, ...etc on their 18th birthday because they have the deck stacked against them ?

Do you also teach them to continue the 'cradle to grave' assistance from the government because of the very bad, successful, affluent folks that worked hard in their lives and accomplished great things.

Only on Sundays.

The rest of the week, I use test prep as a context in which to teach resilience, ingenuity, stress management, self-training, numeracy, and other transferable skills.

 

[Mr Nice]

Off Topic:

I met a Haitian the other day that is an electrician (remodels hospitals). Seven years ago he came to the USA with nothing and barely spoke english. Today because of his hard work and desire to get ahead he is doing very well. Owns a house, 2 cars and lives in a nice neighborhood, kids go to good schools (with good teachers).... he also can't understand the mentality of poor people that are unemployed and protest inequality/social injustice.

Why can't 'poor' folks born in the USA have the same desire to get ahead ????

 

[SteveSRT8]

It is obvious to anyone willing to look that the basic family unit is at the crux of this issue. No Fathers/Mothers, absentee parenting, television, and generations growing up in homes where no one works are some of, but not all, the problems.

One side of my Family is virtually all teachers, both classroom and administrators. They tell many tales of a corrupted system awash in mediocrity that cannot be changed due to restrictive rules by unions and governmental agencies. Throwing more money at it may be the worst idea.

History is full of stories of folks who started from nothing. It does happen. But it requires a resiliency which I do not see much anymore...

 

[Mr Nice]

SteveSRT8,

That inner burning desire to get ahead CAN NOT be taught in the classroom.
If you have a government safety net from cradle to grave, what incentives are there to get out of a housing project ?

Its solely up to a person to make that decision. I said this before.... The only person looking out for your best interest is yourself. 100% of any failure rests on your poor decisions and mistakes.

For the record: I've had a paycheck since I was 15 years old, zero handouts accepted from the government.

 

[SteveSRT8]

^^^Likewise. We pay incredible amounts of taxes and have never taken a dime from the Gov.

My wife has met children in disadvantaged homes that have NEVER seen anyone get up and go to work! These poor kids are just a waste, unlikely to do anything with their lives except suckle the teat.

Personally I think it's tragic. But I can't fix others, I try to work on myself...

 

[surfstar]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
It is obvious to anyone willing to look that the basic family unit is at the crux of this issue. No Fathers/Mothers, absentee parenting, television, and generations growing up in homes where no one works are some of, but not all, the problems.


While our views differ many times, I agree wholly with this.

It comes down to culture. Some cultures value education and it starts from birth with the family structure.
If you are brought up without a family/culture that is focused on education and doing better than your parents did, it is quite hard to overcome this. Your family's values/culture (or lack) is ingrained and it can become quite hard to break free of, for better or worse.

 

[javacontour]

But as long as we are unwilling to address this truth, or avoid it by attempting to shift blame to others, we'll never resolve the issue.

I think of the statements by men such as Charles Barkley who've said things such as:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/27/showbiz/ce...t-black-enough/

Can't fix the problem if your peers are shaming those willing to do the work to avoid falling into the same trap.

It may be an over generalization. Yet on the other hand, if it's happening, it's not helping the community as a whole.

Instead, we hear blame shifting.

But if you go into a blighted community and invest in the properties there. If you build up the housing and try to plant businesses so the community improves, then you are slammed for "gentrification!"

In other words, if you don't use the politically correct solutions, then you are not "helping."

Yet, we've had two plus generations of the polically correct solutions and we have as much poverty as when we started.

When will we abandon the failed solutions and start doing things that we know work?

Originally Posted By: surfstar
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
It is obvious to anyone willing to look that the basic family unit is at the crux of this issue. No Fathers/Mothers, absentee parenting, television, and generations growing up in homes where no one works are some of, but not all, the problems.


While our views differ many times, I agree wholly with this.

It comes down to culture. Some cultures value education and it starts from birth with the family structure.
If you are brought up without a family/culture that is focused on education and doing better than your parents did, it is quite hard to overcome this. Your family's values/culture (or lack) is ingrained and it can become quite hard to break free of, for better or worse.

 

[Mr Nice]

But bad teachers in low income areas of the USA drill into the heads of children and you adults..... there are 'programs' available to them and they are entitled to it when they turn 18.

Its common for teachers to 'instruct' the students and point them in the right direction. Sad but true.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
But as long as we are unwilling to address this truth, or avoid it by attempting to shift blame to others, we'll never resolve the issue.

I think of the statements by men such as Charles Barkley who've said things such as:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/27/showbiz/ce...t-black-enough/

Can't fix the problem if your peers are shaming those willing to do the work to avoid falling into the same trap.

It may be an over generalization. Yet on the other hand, if it's happening, it's not helping the community as a whole.

Instead, we hear blame shifting.

The true hurts, most of the times.

As a group/community if they don't like to help themselves, nobody can help them.