how about dino with an autorx every few oc's?
Are synthetics really worth the extra bucks?
- Thread starter damanwitdaplan
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NO ONE IS SAYING SYTHETICS ARE WORSE FOR YOUR ENGINE ARE THEY? Didn't think so.
I love this family feud, every time it comes up.
I'm with PABLO, et. al. on this one.
You spend $$$K's on a nice car and then you want to save a few dollars because there IS NONE OR LITTLE advantage to syn? It's a value-added judgement call.
If the worst that happens from using synthetic oil over dino is I spend $20-30 too much a year on oil, then I'm getting down on my knees and thankin' the Lord.
I love this family feud, every time it comes up.
I'm with PABLO, et. al. on this one.
You spend $$$K's on a nice car and then you want to save a few dollars because there IS NONE OR LITTLE advantage to syn? It's a value-added judgement call.
If the worst that happens from using synthetic oil over dino is I spend $20-30 too much a year on oil, then I'm getting down on my knees and thankin' the Lord.
My, my, my. We can't takes sides over politics or religion (or science) so we'll feud over oil.
I don't think so. I've read some say that synthetic has lowered consumption by presumably cleaning out deposits left behind by mineral oils.
I mean I DO THINK so...
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(...snip...)I'm finding it so interesting that the Syn folks will not do a UOA with their syn then try some conventional and do a UOA and see that their syn is worth the 2-3 times the cost.
If your running syn for long OCIs, excellent!But go over to the UOAs and see how many are really running 10k-15k OCIs.. Not too many.
(...snip...)
Well, we do them (10-15k OCI) on our 01 Sequoia, and I had just gotten there with the G35 before it went away. I'll be there with the Prius once the wty is up, with the actual interval to be decided by UOA at that time. Just a couple added thoughts. First, no, I'm not going to run a same-interval long OCI and UOA on a comparable dino, since that would be, in my judgment, extraordinarily risky (i.e. running, say, GTX for 15k miles to see how it compares to GC at a similar OCI). IMO, it's not really fair to gig those of us who use syn for longer OCI for failing to run dino comparisons for the same interval. I tell you what -- if you'll post a bond sufficient to replace my drivetrain if (when) over-used dino kills my engine, I'll give it a try!
Finally, I'm not really concerned if the cost comparisons are linear. Sure, if I use a syn that costs 3x your dino (btw, I got much of my GC collection on sale too), but I only use it 2x as long as you use your dino, you're paying less. I'm OK with that -- I'm willing to pay a reasonable "premium" so as to avoid doing an oil change every second or third weekend (which I would with our three cars on short, dino OCIs).
Precisely!
I have always liked frequent change intervals. 3K on dino and 4K on syn is plenty. Calculate your cost per mile for any oil and any change interval. The difference is vanishingly small, compared to the cost of other maintenance and replacements, fuel, depreciation and insurance.
In my experience, ordinary oils do clean up an engine. In a '96 Ody we bought used, the engine cleaned up noticeably on both syn and dino. On a Japanese take-out I bought for a used '86 Civic 1500, the engine cleaned up nicely with 3K changes on dino. I have also read that dino has better detergency than syn.
In my experience, ordinary oils do clean up an engine. In a '96 Ody we bought used, the engine cleaned up noticeably on both syn and dino. On a Japanese take-out I bought for a used '86 Civic 1500, the engine cleaned up nicely with 3K changes on dino. I have also read that dino has better detergency than syn.
Please spend some time studying the results in our UOA section. With a good syn, esp the Group-IV/V types, dumping it at 4k is a total waste of good oil, money, and time. Would you consider throwing away half of every tank of fuel? Automatically replacing all your tires at 10-30k miles? Changing your ATF at 10k miles? Of course not. Again, look over our dozens of pages of UOAs. The objective evidence is right there -- dumping good syn at 4k miles makes no more sense.
Okay, so what about all of the combustion and wear products that are too small to be captured by the filter? I'm guessing they suspend in the oil. Getting them out cannot be a bad thing. Oil is cheap. Engines are expensive.
Maybe my engine just didn't like the versions of Castrol GTX or High Mileage that I was using, because synthetics did indeed make my engine run better (quieter and smoother). That alone satisfied me enough to want to keep using it. I don't have as much access to where I normally do oil changes, so reducing oil changes is fine for me as well.
Maybe you can tell me why they then bother to also put in the 3.6L V6 Cadillac CTS? That engine is a far cry from the 400hp in the Corvette.
Check out my last several UOA. You'll see that I ordered optional extra particle counts with them. No issue here. My PCs showed my long-used motor oil to be clean enough to serve as hydraulic fluid in a commercial airliner (not that you'd use motor oil as hyd fluid...). In other words, it's very clean fluid/oil. Yes, oil is relatively cheap, engines are expensive, and myths are persistent. Unless your engine is subjected to some truly unusual, extraordinary circumstances, you just don't need to change that often.
This one falls in the old wife's tale category. "All" of these products don't add up to much. I've run and read way too many UOA's to believe this. To be honest, most of the crud in the oil is the oil itself, or rather the byproducts of oil degradation - from dino oil. Analyzing a synthetic oil even at 15K+ typically does not show some over abundance of by-products, and certainly not a bunch of wear metals.
Indeed this point is often brought up. Last time I checked, oil is becoming more precious. Implying that rationally extended oil change intervals will ruin an engine is just factually wrong.
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NO ONE IS SAYING SYTHETICS ARE WORSE FOR YOUR ENGINE ARE THEY? Didn't think so.
I love this family feud, every time it comes up.
I'm with PABLO, et. al. on this one.
You spend $$$K's on a nice car and then you want to save a few dollars because there IS NONE OR LITTLE advantage to syn? It's a value-added judgement call.
If the worst that happens from using synthetic oil over dino is I spend $20-30 too much a year on oil, then I'm getting down on my knees and thankin' the Lord.
ok, let's go with my car...
2005 Toyota Corolla with 60k miles. (2 years old yesterday!)
have to do 5k oci for Warrenty. No matter what oil you use. (please lets not get into thats a silly oci and you would go 10k)
so, 30k miles times 5k oci equal 6 oil changes.
6 times 4 quarts = 24 quarts.
Lets go to wal-mart and buy oil!
I'll buy Halovine for $9 for 5 quarts. thats $1.80 a quart.
24 times $1.80 = $43.20 for one year of oil.
Now we will buy PP. It's the cheapest syn @ 19 for 5 quarts. $3.80 a quart.
$3.80 times 24 equals $91.20.
$91.20 minus $43.20 equals $48.00 difference.
A little more than $20-30 a year.
Lets go out to 200k miles. thats 40 oci changes with 4 quarts per change is 160 quarts.
$288 for conventional vs $608 for Syn.
$320 difference. At the end of 200k will there be a difference in engines?
Thats the $320 difference...
I'll save the $320 and use it for gas.. @ $3 a gallon, thats 4600 miles of gas for me!
If you want to use it, excellent and Ekpolk uses it to his advantages!
For me, it's not worth it. I know what works!
Take care all, Bill
PS: If your car holds more oil, then the cost difference is even more. If you buy your oil for less than a buck a quart, the $$$$ are large...
Further, UOAs are not generic. What happened with a given oil over a given OCI in a given engine has little or nothing to do with my engine in my car with my oil. I have considered (for grins ang giggles) getting a UOA or two on my own cars' drain oil, probably will. However, barring unexpected catatrophe in the making, it will mean very lttle. UOA is not intended as a snapshot. Rather, it gives an ongoing record of the operating performance and likely remaining useful life of an engine. It thus is useful for really expensive engines. Should I do a top overhaul on my 182's Continental? Should I be looking for a buyer for the Citation 500? UOA, used on an ongoing basis, can answer these questions. A one or two time UOA in a given application tells us noting really useful. Your UOAs cannot answer my questions wrt appropriate drain intervals for my vehicle as I drive it.
Part of the problem in making "linear" comparisons is that people tend to skew the mileages involved. You can't say, oh, AMSoil is cheaper becuase you can go 20k-25k ocis at a given price (in order to justify using an oil that you just want to use) and compare it to dino at say, 3k intervals.
You have to take a realistic starting point. imo the service life of synth is somewhat more ambiguous compared to dino which has a more finite service life. So, dino....6000 miles? That's fair considering Mobil's Clean 5000 and 7500 product guarantee. So, 6000mi at $2/q compares to 12k for a $4 oil or 15k for a $5 oil.
I don't consider filters, a filter runs however long you want to run it, dino or syn....I leave mine on for 2 intervals.
Also I don't want to hear about labor, are we not men?
Anyway, when you compare $2 dino at 6000mi to the other ~same cost~ options, dino looks good changed much more frequently.
You have to take a realistic starting point. imo the service life of synth is somewhat more ambiguous compared to dino which has a more finite service life. So, dino....6000 miles? That's fair considering Mobil's Clean 5000 and 7500 product guarantee. So, 6000mi at $2/q compares to 12k for a $4 oil or 15k for a $5 oil.
I don't consider filters, a filter runs however long you want to run it, dino or syn....I leave mine on for 2 intervals.
Also I don't want to hear about labor, are we not men?
Anyway, when you compare $2 dino at 6000mi to the other ~same cost~ options, dino looks good changed much more frequently.
Bill - are you only doing 5K for you calculated synthetic oci? Drop in $20/hour for your time and take the OCI for the synthetic to a conservative 10K or 15K miles.
$20/hour for labour? Ok, I can do an OC in 5 minutes then. Add $1.66
"$320 difference. At the end of 200k will there be a difference in engines?"
Lot of people with sludged engines probably wished that they had used a synthetic, as it will tend to provide more margin in such design challenged cases. I wish I had used it on our older car.
Lot of people with sludged engines probably wished that they had used a synthetic, as it will tend to provide more margin in such design challenged cases. I wish I had used it on our older car.
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