Are synthetics really worth the extra bucks?
- Thread starter damanwitdaplan
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hey it was worth throwing in Brian! i'm on a hunt for the best oc ritual there is...i'm starting to wonder whether tailoring your oc between syn and dino is the way to go...
maybe a new thread should be started on the subject...it seems this one is starting to fizzle
maybe a new thread should be started on the subject...it seems this one is starting to fizzle
Agree 100%...even if I think it does not cost me that much.
In the immediate family I have 7 vehicles to maintain. If I had to change at 3000 miles, then my kids would have to get the vehicles serviced. I don't trust the oil change employees at quick lubes or even dealerships.
I don't believe that my family members will always find the time to get the oil changes performed when needed. At least with the synthetics that I use, the OCI of 7K is conservative, and could be stretched out to 9K with little worry.
With synthetic I don't have to worry about outside temperature, how hard the vehicle is driven, or the oil level dropping more than a fraction of a quart.
The risk that a vehicle might be operated a quart low is no longer a problem...and to me that is a huge advantage of using low NOACK synthetic oil.
While conventional oil is now quite good, I am not convinced that conventional oil is a good choice for 7000 OCI's. In Colorado with a wide range of temperatures and the demands of driving over mountain passes on long 7% grades to altitudes as high as 10,600 ...I like having the best synthetic oil.
I've seen lots of vehicles with conventional oil and lots of sludge or premature engine wear. In contrast, my vehicles run great even at very high miles, despite being driven hard.... and the engines always look clean and free of sludge.
As far as cost:
Over 21,000 miles
3 synthetic oil changes cost me between $120 /21K and $165 / 21K [ less than $40.00 per change using GC or PP and Pure One filters, and less than $55 per change using M1, Amsoil, Redline or other most other top oils and a Pure One filter.]
7 oil changes with conventional oil and generic filter at most quick lubes will cost $210/ 21K. Even if I did every oil change myself and bought the oil for less than $1/qt and oil filters for less than $2... I'd spend $49/ 21K.
This is before I calculate the value of my time, and driving to dispose of the oil, and the logistics of having my kids get the car home every 3K to line up with their planned visits.
This is also before I calculate the likelihood of engine damage to an engine from running low on oil, or from sludge, or from a quick lube using a poor choice of oil or filter.
When driving a $20K+ vehicle, complaining about the price of oil changes, dino/non-synthetic/conventional/fill-in-the-term-here oils or synthetics makes about as much sense as complaining about the price of gas.
Neither makes sense when compared to the cost of the vehicle.
Use whatever oil helps you sleep better at night.
Neither makes sense when compared to the cost of the vehicle.
Use whatever oil helps you sleep better at night.
[quoteThe wife's Accord V6, on strictly highway miles, get's 33 MPG's on her 140 mile commutes using M1 5W20 the last 12,000 miles. She used to get 31 MPG's using GTX 5W20 over a 6,500 mile period.
That's a 6% improvement using M1 and over 200,000 miles ...that's 424 gallons of free fuel at...you pick a number...is $2.50 fair? OH, YOU USED $3.00 didn't you...I'm letting you up easy, Bill.
At $2.50 that's $1,060.00 in gas savings over 200,000 miles. You owe $740.00 in
dances, Bill.
BUT...if it WERE only a TINY .66 MPG gain it would still work out to be $353.00-$320 OR $33.00 better to use synthetics. Now, be honest Bill, do you think it's possible for people to get a .66 MPG increase using syns? Hey, you wanted to nit pick my numbers. I'll return the favor.
BUT, if you want to hit a softball out of the park and rib me good (we're family here...) and you've convinved yourself dino is better based on cost factors then here it is....I'd still pay $320 more to use the sythetic just for peace of mind. Unless you can prove it's not as good as dino oil. I like Makers Mark, too.
Ah, but I've kept track of my MPG on EVERY tank on EVERY car/truck I've owned.
We will use my 99 Taurus (3.0l V6), 00 Chev truck (4.8l V8), 05 Toyota Corolla (1.8l I4) and I've ran Syn in all of them for a few OCI. Guess what? NO difference in MPG over the whole OCI. Not a bit.
So, MPG improvement is a non issue. No "savings".
How about wear? I've done UOAs before the Syn runs using conventional oil then ran syn and then did UOA on the syn and guess what? The UOAs were the same or worst than when running conventional oil.
Strike two... (for ME)
Then I take into fact that I've driven hundreds of thousands of miles and all of my engines in the past are running fine, pass smog, get excellent MPG (everyone above EPA numbers) when you look into the engine they are clean, whats the reason for ME to run a $2-$7 a quart oil when the 49 cent a quart oil is DOING the JOB just fine?
Ok, time spent changing oil....
I have Fram Sure Drains on all engines. I have a set of Ramps. When its oil changing time, the family and I come back from Wal-Mart (I'm just going to have one of my paychecks direct deposited into their account to save time...
) we set up the ramps, drive onto them and get out the drain hose and container. (2-3 mins)
15 mins later, grab the filter wrench and drain pan and take off the filter. (2-3 mins)
Pre fill the new $2 supertech filter and put on. (3 mins)
Take off the drain hose and put cap back on. (1 min)
Put 3.5 quarts on oil in and start up, check for leaks (3 mins).
Drive off ramps and put away. (2 mins)
Wait 1/2 hour and top off to top of dipstick and done.
Not a big deal to change oil. When I buy cars/trucks I have passed on certain makes/models because the oil filter was in a bad place (except for my 1998 Accord... I sold it 18 months later)
My time is worth more than $20 a hour... WHEN I'm at work. At home, it's worth nothing so I don't look at that.
What I look at is my oil changes for the Corolla cost under $5 incl oil filter. The truck is a little over $5 incl oil filter.
When I change it at 4-5k I'm getting good clean oil in there with a fresh filter.
All my driving life, every engine I've owned this is what I have done. All of my engines are still going that I know of (most of my ex cars/trucks are owned by friends/family so I can keep track) and start and stop when need to.
I guess why I am so vocal on the conventional vs syn is that this is a board for sharing facts and experiences for both people who have been here and new people.
It blows me away when we get the "if you care about your motor you HAVE to run Syn", the "Pennzoil makes sludge period", "Valovine is trash", etc...
Not a single FACT there...
You do NOT have to spend $5 a quart to "care" about your engine.
You can run a good oil and change it out per the manual. Your engine will be fine.
I've never seen the big MPG gains that others see so not a factor.
I'll just have to be happy with my almost 43 mpg OVERALL average with my Toyota over 60k miles on cheap oil..
Now, if running Syn gives you Peace of mind, great! Just know that you could run the "cheaper" oil and your engine will not care.
Now, for extended oil changes, force fed, and engines that REQUIRE syn , no problem. You're getting the value of the syn.
But as the post above shows.. He changes his syn oil at 5k and oil is cheap.
$1333 is alot of money..
Do we all think that he is getting his money worth there?
My 200k of oil changes cost is $200 total incl filters.
At the end, we all are going to do what we want to do.
And in the end, hopefully all of our engines will be still attached to the car and we all make it safely to what ever mileage is our goal.
And I do know one thing... If we want to make sure there is traffic on the old web site, just make a subject like this or a rock(sorry Pabs
) and watch the postings fly!
Take care all! Bill
That's a 6% improvement using M1 and over 200,000 miles ...that's 424 gallons of free fuel at...you pick a number...is $2.50 fair? OH, YOU USED $3.00 didn't you...I'm letting you up easy, Bill.
At $2.50 that's $1,060.00 in gas savings over 200,000 miles. You owe $740.00 in
BUT...if it WERE only a TINY .66 MPG gain it would still work out to be $353.00-$320 OR $33.00 better to use synthetics. Now, be honest Bill, do you think it's possible for people to get a .66 MPG increase using syns? Hey, you wanted to nit pick my numbers. I'll return the favor.
BUT, if you want to hit a softball out of the park and rib me good (we're family here...) and you've convinved yourself dino is better based on cost factors then here it is....I'd still pay $320 more to use the sythetic just for peace of mind. Unless you can prove it's not as good as dino oil. I like Makers Mark, too.
Ah, but I've kept track of my MPG on EVERY tank on EVERY car/truck I've owned.
We will use my 99 Taurus (3.0l V6), 00 Chev truck (4.8l V8), 05 Toyota Corolla (1.8l I4) and I've ran Syn in all of them for a few OCI. Guess what? NO difference in MPG over the whole OCI. Not a bit.
So, MPG improvement is a non issue. No "savings".
How about wear? I've done UOAs before the Syn runs using conventional oil then ran syn and then did UOA on the syn and guess what? The UOAs were the same or worst than when running conventional oil.
Strike two... (for ME)
Then I take into fact that I've driven hundreds of thousands of miles and all of my engines in the past are running fine, pass smog, get excellent MPG (everyone above EPA numbers) when you look into the engine they are clean, whats the reason for ME to run a $2-$7 a quart oil when the 49 cent a quart oil is DOING the JOB just fine?
Ok, time spent changing oil....
I have Fram Sure Drains on all engines. I have a set of Ramps. When its oil changing time, the family and I come back from Wal-Mart (I'm just going to have one of my paychecks direct deposited into their account to save time...
15 mins later, grab the filter wrench and drain pan and take off the filter. (2-3 mins)
Pre fill the new $2 supertech filter and put on. (3 mins)
Take off the drain hose and put cap back on. (1 min)
Put 3.5 quarts on oil in and start up, check for leaks (3 mins).
Drive off ramps and put away. (2 mins)
Wait 1/2 hour and top off to top of dipstick and done.
Not a big deal to change oil. When I buy cars/trucks I have passed on certain makes/models because the oil filter was in a bad place (except for my 1998 Accord... I sold it 18 months later)
My time is worth more than $20 a hour... WHEN I'm at work. At home, it's worth nothing so I don't look at that.
What I look at is my oil changes for the Corolla cost under $5 incl oil filter. The truck is a little over $5 incl oil filter.
When I change it at 4-5k I'm getting good clean oil in there with a fresh filter.
All my driving life, every engine I've owned this is what I have done. All of my engines are still going that I know of (most of my ex cars/trucks are owned by friends/family so I can keep track) and start and stop when need to.
I guess why I am so vocal on the conventional vs syn is that this is a board for sharing facts and experiences for both people who have been here and new people.
It blows me away when we get the "if you care about your motor you HAVE to run Syn", the "Pennzoil makes sludge period", "Valovine is trash", etc...
Not a single FACT there...
You do NOT have to spend $5 a quart to "care" about your engine.
You can run a good oil and change it out per the manual. Your engine will be fine.
I've never seen the big MPG gains that others see so not a factor.
I'll just have to be happy with my almost 43 mpg OVERALL average with my Toyota over 60k miles on cheap oil..
Now, if running Syn gives you Peace of mind, great! Just know that you could run the "cheaper" oil and your engine will not care.
Now, for extended oil changes, force fed, and engines that REQUIRE syn , no problem. You're getting the value of the syn.
But as the post above shows.. He changes his syn oil at 5k and oil is cheap.
$1333 is alot of money..
Do we all think that he is getting his money worth there?
My 200k of oil changes cost is $200 total incl filters.
At the end, we all are going to do what we want to do.
And in the end, hopefully all of our engines will be still attached to the car and we all make it safely to what ever mileage is our goal.
And I do know one thing... If we want to make sure there is traffic on the old web site, just make a subject like this or a rock(sorry Pabs
Take care all! Bill
For you, my whole last post I did not use the "D" word!
Thanks for your SERVICE to our country!
Take care, Bill
Quote:
Polk! You flew!?!?!
Which birds?
Other than the training command (T-34C, T-2, TA-4), all EA-6Bs (ICAP-1 & ICAP-2). With VMAQ-2 from '86 through '91.
Bill u've managed to win me over with your logic a 2nd time!
why don't u buy wix filters from fleetfilter instead of using supertech? they'll cost about the same in bulk.
why don't u buy wix filters from fleetfilter instead of using supertech? they'll cost about the same in bulk.
Hermann
Site Donor 2023
Live long and prosper, Bill
I am perhaps a product of the 'seventies. At the time, 3K OCIs were considered appropriate to the oils then avaialable. I will spend some time in the UOA forum, since I would like to extend OCI miles, as long as it seems that the engine will not suffer for it. Finally, I like syns mainly because they offer better flow on the really cold mornings we get around here each winter, as well as less shearing and less oxidation for the above 90 F weeks we get at least once most summers. I also think there is a small drop in fuel consumption, although those who track fuel consumption tank by tank, as I do, will know that there are enough variables that it is hard to say that the syn actually makes a difference. Off topic, is there anyone else here who thinks that fuel economy improves over fairly high mileages? For example, if I review my records for any vehicle that we have owned, fuel economy seems 5-10% better by 100K than it was at, say, 20K.
[quote....blah....
.....
When I change it at 4-5k I'm getting good clean oil in there with a fresh filter.
....All my driving life, every engine I've owned this is what I have done.....
----------------------------------------
Bill,
Well, your 4-5K OCI...good clean oil. Comforting isn't it? It makes you feel good. Not clean at 6K but too clean at 3K? But, I can dig the "fresh oil" point of view. I feel the same about fresh synthetic. A security blanket subjective thing.
3K's and "conventional" oil is reasonable and in truth I'm still toying with that plan, more or less, for my Maintenance Mindered '07 Civic Si I'm getting here soon. Do I really want it "minding" my synthetic? How is this "minder" going to work with synthetics? Does it know? Is the program going to give me 6K's +- with synthetics? Or it it thinking this is conventional oil. I don't want it telling me my conventional oil is fine a 8K. Geeze...that violates the Bill 4-5K rule. Do I let it flag my M1 EP at 3K or say 4K cause the program says so?....it better be good at what it's doing. I just BELIEVE synthetics give me an edge... quart low, high heat racing it around in the 110 F. New Mexico heat on desert roads reving it to 7800 all day long. Might want some insurance here, and that would be either Amsoil, Castrol, M1, PP or...
----------------------------------
"All my driving life, every engine I've owned this is what I have done...". ----Well, there you are. Try a 6k-7.5K OCI with a synthetic.
.....
When I change it at 4-5k I'm getting good clean oil in there with a fresh filter.
....All my driving life, every engine I've owned this is what I have done.....
----------------------------------------
Bill,
Well, your 4-5K OCI...good clean oil. Comforting isn't it? It makes you feel good. Not clean at 6K but too clean at 3K? But, I can dig the "fresh oil" point of view. I feel the same about fresh synthetic. A security blanket subjective thing.
3K's and "conventional" oil is reasonable and in truth I'm still toying with that plan, more or less, for my Maintenance Mindered '07 Civic Si I'm getting here soon. Do I really want it "minding" my synthetic? How is this "minder" going to work with synthetics? Does it know? Is the program going to give me 6K's +- with synthetics? Or it it thinking this is conventional oil. I don't want it telling me my conventional oil is fine a 8K. Geeze...that violates the Bill 4-5K rule. Do I let it flag my M1 EP at 3K or say 4K cause the program says so?....it better be good at what it's doing. I just BELIEVE synthetics give me an edge... quart low, high heat racing it around in the 110 F. New Mexico heat on desert roads reving it to 7800 all day long. Might want some insurance here, and that would be either Amsoil, Castrol, M1, PP or...
----------------------------------
"All my driving life, every engine I've owned this is what I have done...". ----Well, there you are. Try a 6k-7.5K OCI with a synthetic.
Some people claim that there's a dino to blame,
But I know it's nobody's fault.
I'm running an XD-3 0W30/15W40 blend on my turbo volvo for the first time. I got caught in the BITOG excitement over XD-3 synthetics ... although I also like the idea of extending OCI's to minimize waste oil/filters.
Quote:
Some people claim that there's a dino to blame,
But I know it's nobody's fault.
AME2, VA-35/USS Nimitz. Gru-7 Martin Bakers, LOX, all that.
Wasn't Grumman wunnerful?
Kestas
Staff member
Cicero, Tanufacturers go through great efforts to squeeze just 0.1 mpg from a vehicle. If vehicles truly got 6% better gas mileage on average, they would be all over this and use synthetic as factory fill for EVERY car in production to meet CAFE standards. If it were only that easy! Your experience must have included some other variables that you're not aware of.
I agree with Bill. All my colleagues agree that they make a certain wage at work, yet when they go home their time is worth $5 per hour - maybe less.
I agree with Bill. All my colleagues agree that they make a certain wage at work, yet when they go home their time is worth $5 per hour - maybe less.
Hey, they didn't call them "Grumman Iron Works' for nothing. Great, well-built machines (that, btw, used Group-V lube oil!). Alas, echoing a theme in the parallel CAD thread, none of the last "pure" Grumman products were very easy to fix. When they declawed the final surviving Tomcats last year, they were soaking up almost 10x the maintenance hours to keep flying as were the newer F-18s. Oh well, sorry for veering OT...Quote:
AME2, VA-35/USS Nimitz. Gru-7 Martin Bakers, LOX, all that.
Wasn't Grumman wunnerful?
AME2, VA-35/USS Nimitz. A6E TRAM, KA6's, Gru-7 Martin Bakers, LOX, all that.
Wasn't Grumman wunnerful?
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