I agree. I was referring to the immediate pickup of loose stuff and the quart or so of dirty oil that's trapped in the engine unless you disassemble the block itself. For example in the Camry's V-6 engine, per the Toyota service manual, the block traps 0.8 qts of oil that just ain't coming out (without taking the engine apart), regardless of how long you leave the drain plug open. Back to the "cleaning" thing, again I understand that oils won't do a cleanup job, but I do think it will pick up a certain amount of contamination while circulating in contact with soft sludge deposits. Varnish? Forget about it.
Are synthetics really worth the extra bucks?
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I agree. I was referring to the immediate pickup of loose stuff and the quart or so of dirty oil that's trapped in the engine unless you disassemble the block itself. For example in the Camry's V-6 engine, per the Toyota service manual, the block traps 0.8 qts of oil that just ain't coming out (without taking the engine apart), regardless of how long you leave the drain plug open. Back to the "cleaning" thing, again I understand that oils won't do a cleanup job, but I do think it will pick up a certain amount of contamination while circulating in contact with soft sludge deposits. Varnish? Forget about it.
I guess it depends on the oil. If you really want to nitpick, AutoRX is a synthetic oil and I am pretty convinced it cleans engines. Castrol makes different formulations that are designed to be more detergent in nature than others. Oh wait, but Castrol isn't a real synthetic.
Most automobile engines will give good service on either a good dino or good synthetic. Where synthetic shines is in applications where its unique properties, especially high temperature tolerance, give a distinct edge over dino oils. Two applications I can think of are in sludge prone engines such as the 2.0 liter Saabs and in turbocharged engines where synthetic oil will continue to give good lubrication in a hot turgocharger spooling down after powering down of the engine and the loss of pumped oil.
OK - here is something up for comparison:
I have a 2004 Pontiac Sunfire (2.2L Ecotec) 60,000 mi
My sister has a 05 Pontiac Sunfire (2.2L Ecotec) 40,000 mi
I've been using Mobil 1 from 10k-30k and various other synthetics (GC, Amsoil, etc...) onward at short OCIs (3-5k).
Sister has been using Dealer dino up till now.
Look into both engines - my engine is spotless like the day I bought it (silvery metal).
My sister's engine has a slightly dark brown color to the metal. She also doesn't change oil as often as she should...
I believe synthetics do a good job of keeping an engine clean and spotless with good OCIs. I convinced sister to use GC 0w30 in her last change - and GC turned dark brown VERY quickly. In my car - GC keeps its invisible color to 3,000 miles and starts to slightly brown up around 5,000 miles. At 7500 miles GC in my car looks very brown but not black.
Just observations
I have a 2004 Pontiac Sunfire (2.2L Ecotec) 60,000 mi
My sister has a 05 Pontiac Sunfire (2.2L Ecotec) 40,000 mi
I've been using Mobil 1 from 10k-30k and various other synthetics (GC, Amsoil, etc...) onward at short OCIs (3-5k).
Sister has been using Dealer dino up till now.
Look into both engines - my engine is spotless like the day I bought it (silvery metal).
My sister's engine has a slightly dark brown color to the metal. She also doesn't change oil as often as she should...
I believe synthetics do a good job of keeping an engine clean and spotless with good OCIs. I convinced sister to use GC 0w30 in her last change - and GC turned dark brown VERY quickly. In my car - GC keeps its invisible color to 3,000 miles and starts to slightly brown up around 5,000 miles. At 7500 miles GC in my car looks very brown but not black.
Just observations
Guess at least some of the major auto manufacturers seem to think so. Heck, they could fill a Porsche a lot cheaper if they used non-synthetic. And think of how much Mercedes could save, and Saab, and even GM could save by putting junk oil into the Corvettes. Oh well, they must all be deluded.
wait a sec. so from what i've read so far we have conflicting stories as to whether synthetics are consistently outperforming dino in real driving conditions. with different people.different cars.different driving styles.
it just dawned on me...isnt that another way of saying they're no better? OMG!
it just dawned on me...isnt that another way of saying they're no better? OMG!
if you have a new car, I mean BRAND NEW with a spotless engine then yes they are worth it if you want to keep it that way for 500,000 miles and actually plan on keeping it that long, but most people don't, they buy a new car every 3 or 4 years and trade their current one in.
if you have an older car with a dirty engine it's just not worth it, theres no way I would drive 10,000 miles on any oil on a car with 175k.
if you have an older car with a dirty engine it's just not worth it, theres no way I would drive 10,000 miles on any oil on a car with 175k.
No, that's not another way of saying they're no better -- not at all. What it means is that you have to look at the particular circumstances in question and match them to the strengths and weaknesses of the products that might be used. In some situations, synthetics make more sense, in others, conventionals do. Of course, some folks need, for their own psychological reasons, to feel like they know what's "best". Usually, such broad general labels are useful only in the most superficial way, or for advertising purposes. You have to look at your car, its engine, how you drive, your environment, and so forth; and only after considering those things carefully, can you say in any honestly meaningful sense what oil, syn or dino, is "best" for you.
Are synthetic oils better? There is NO doubt about that.
Now - do all people, all applications, and all situations need synthetic oil? No. If you feel OK with changing your oil at 5K or less OCI’s, never start the car in very cold situations, never drive for extended times in extreme stop and go or high revving at high temperature conditions, you’ll be OK with the new dino oils. However as a bunch of Toyota, Chrysler, MB, VW, etc owners found out – petroleum refined oils have very little margin after they sludged and destroyed the engine. Is this the fault of the dino oil – of course NOT. But a synthetic oil would have lasted.
I value my time. I enjoy changing my oil like the next fat person, but I don’t like changing oil in January @ 5°F or at 105°F in July. Those of you enjoying your $1/qt oil and changing in winter, be my guest. Now you pay someone to do it? These costs must be figured in too.
I change the Volvo oil at 10K + intervals. The engine is spotless at around 105,000 miles. As was my last Volvo at 265K miles. The Honda goes by the OLM – would I feed dino oil to this fine machine for that interval?
I don’t mind paying $4-6 qt for the oil. It’s not a budget buster, especially when I include MY time.
Good luck!
Now - do all people, all applications, and all situations need synthetic oil? No. If you feel OK with changing your oil at 5K or less OCI’s, never start the car in very cold situations, never drive for extended times in extreme stop and go or high revving at high temperature conditions, you’ll be OK with the new dino oils. However as a bunch of Toyota, Chrysler, MB, VW, etc owners found out – petroleum refined oils have very little margin after they sludged and destroyed the engine. Is this the fault of the dino oil – of course NOT. But a synthetic oil would have lasted.
I value my time. I enjoy changing my oil like the next fat person, but I don’t like changing oil in January @ 5°F or at 105°F in July. Those of you enjoying your $1/qt oil and changing in winter, be my guest. Now you pay someone to do it? These costs must be figured in too.
I change the Volvo oil at 10K + intervals. The engine is spotless at around 105,000 miles. As was my last Volvo at 265K miles. The Honda goes by the OLM – would I feed dino oil to this fine machine for that interval?
I don’t mind paying $4-6 qt for the oil. It’s not a budget buster, especially when I include MY time.
Good luck!
The bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that with the advent of modern Group II+ base oils, and the SM performance requirements, the difference between "conventional" and "synthetic" is largely nonexistent unless you do extended drains, i.e., drains longer than 7500 miles.
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Nice try...
We all know why GM puts Syn in their Corvette, because its driven harder than a normal car and they did not want to put a oil cooler on the car.
The trucks get the close to the same engine without syn.. I guess my truck will die next week since I'm not running syn??
As far as Mercedes some of their engines DONT come from the factory with Syn and their Manual says NOTHING about syn...
Wonder why if Syn is soooooo much better?
I don't sell oil. I have NOT one iron in this fire. Just stating facts as I have seen in my life.
I don't have to justify spending $$ for oil that I don't need to run...
I drive more than the average person. I've run quite a few engines down the road with not a single problem in hundreds of thousands of miles. Other than a few ocis with Syn to PROVE ( see I have a open mind since I pay the extra $$ to run the syn and then even more to do a UOA ) what I'm doing (other than having many engines last) is correct.
I'm finding it so interesting that the Syn folks will not do a UOA with their syn then try some conventional and do a UOA and see that their syn is worth the 2-3 times the cost.
If your running syn for long OCIs, excellent!
I've always said if your manual states to run Syn, DO it. (turbos, expensive cars and such)
But if you think that running syn for the oci that your manual states is going to get you longer life out of your engine, sorry... Not going to happen.
Go call your insurance agent and ask him if your car at 200k gets hit and totalled, since you've been running Syn you will get more $$ for it when they write the check.. correct?
Again, I'm not in the business to sell anyone a thing..
I post eveything I've done so nothing is a guess. If I'm getting long life out of engines that ran yesterdays cheap oils and fram fitlers, just think with todays excellent SL/SM conventional oils and better filters can do!
And I live where it gets cold (4700 ft valley floor) and have never had a problem starting with 10w-30 and now 5w-30 conventional oils.
In fact, my BEST uoa with my toyota came durning the coldest part of the year (and my car sits outside for 10-12 hours before getting started so its cold both times per day per start).
If conventional oil is so bad during the winter, would not the wear metals go WAY up for winter UOAs?
No, it does not get 40 below zero here.. But it does go in the minus and single digits alot.
As far as running clean, my Taurus was a Hertz rent a car for its first 21k of life. You know that it's oil was changed every 3k...
At 61k and 108k it was spotless. (no sludge, no varnish, nothing)
If conventional is so dirty how does that happen?
My truck gets too many short trips well under 2 miles and it's spotless.
The Jetta with 295k is super clean. Hopefully my sister in law will be coming up this Christmas and I'm going to go buy a valve cover gasket and take off the cover.. And take photos (am I sick or what?) and I'll post those!
But bottom line is for me, why spend $4-7 a quart of oil and I'll never run it out to the point where the cost meets the performance.
If I can run on sale oil for 4-5k ocis and have engines last as long as they have I'll continue doing that.
Take care all, bill
well said G-man.
but i would add "unless u do extended drains or drive in extreme temperatures or have a sludge prone engine"
so do we have a census for once? hear ye! hear ye!! all those in favor of the above statement regarding the use of syn oils...otherwise u'r ok with a quality dino
but i would add "unless u do extended drains or drive in extreme temperatures or have a sludge prone engine"
so do we have a census for once? hear ye! hear ye!! all those in favor of the above statement regarding the use of syn oils...otherwise u'r ok with a quality dino
I bought a 2005 GMC Envoy with a 5.3L engine. I switched it to synthetic Mobil 1 5W-30 at 774 miles. So there is no doubt that the engine was clean. The mobil 1 was already getting dark at 500 miles. It has continued to darken since then. My daughter has the same engine and uses the same oil and it has done the same thing. So, in regards to Mobil 1 it is normal for this oil to darken very early.
As stated here many times. Oil color does not mean much. Only oil analysis will tell the true story.
As stated here many times. Oil color does not mean much. Only oil analysis will tell the true story.
BTW, a neighbor/friend of mine who happens to be a master Honda technician smirked at me when i asked him about the value of using syn. "u racing with it?" is all he managed to say. This is coming from a guy who owns an accord with 300k + miles on it...
Agree 1000%!
Thats why I do UOAs and have Terry cover UOAs here and there for me...
No guessing, just facts!
Take care, bill
I disagree, based on my experience.
'84 Ford LTD wagon 3.8L V6 (midsize) purchased used in 1986 (lease return) with 26,000 miles. 2 month/~2500 miles OCI with dino.
Switched to Red Line 10w40 at about 100,000 miles. Found the Red Line looking "very dirty" within about the first week.
Figured the engine must have much sludge. Fresh dino oil, fresh filter + (2) bottles of Lubro Moly Oil Change Prep for the prescribed 200 mile interval.
Drained the oil (200 miles), BLACK as black can be, scary black.
Filled with fresh Red Line.. no more "very dirty" in 1-2 weeks. My conclusion, the Red Line was in fact cleaning up the nasty sludge left behind by the dino oil.
fat biker
Including the motor in their Sprinter Vans?
The one that I looked at did not have the Mobil 1 oil cap or no where on the quick lube sheet or manual stated Syn...
The motor has Mercedes-Benz all over it...
(the stealership said they put in 10-40 oil out of the bulk tank in that motor for the dozens of vans they have sold..)
Take care, Bill
I didn't say they use Mobil 1 in all their engines. Only synthetic oils meet the 229.5 and 229.51 specs that are required in all current MB engines. Click here for a list of oils that meet these specs.
Last time I looked, the Sprinter was a Dodge. Even though the engine is a Benz engine, they may have different oil specs for it. But if you buy anything with the Mercedes-Benz name on it, it has synthetic oil in it from the factory, and the service fill requirements are for synthetic.
Last time I looked, the Sprinter was a Dodge. Even though the engine is a Benz engine, they may have different oil specs for it. But if you buy anything with the Mercedes-Benz name on it, it has synthetic oil in it from the factory, and the service fill requirements are for synthetic.
It seems like the schisim is between the "good feeling" that comes with doing a dino OC every coupla months and the "good feeling" that comes with using a top-notch synthetic product. Either is a good rush, some people do BOTH, synth at 5000-6000 miles. The problem there is the top-end synth users don't run it out to be cost-effective compared to dino. Honestly, dino at 6000 sounds better than synth at the 12,000-15,000 that it takes to be cost comparable.
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