Am I right? or am I wrong?

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

High-SAPS is becoming a thing of the past. High-SAPS is primarily the ACEA A3/B4 category that provides high initial TBN, a category that seems to be slowly becoming outdated.

As long as our fuel continues to have higher sulphur levels than comparable EU countries, then high-SAPS oils will continue to be in production. Don't kid yourself.

You didn't get any of my points.

(1) You didn't get my point about the sulfur being primarily a concern for diesel-engine oils, where the levels are really high, but not for gasoline-engine oils.

(2) You didn't get my point about there is no such thing being as high-sulfur ILSAC oil. ILSAC oils are mid-SAPS at most.

(3) You didn't get my point about the European ACEA A/B categories are actually being the high-SAPS categories out there.

If you want to prove your point, stop quoting and arguing about my points and post one respectable reference stating that VW 504.00 can't be used instead of VW 502.00 (in US, Europe, or elsewhere), which is your main point and it's this point of yours that I am saying is false. Otherwise, what you have been posting is nothing but rhetoric.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Well the discussion here has really been interesting. I have never really thought of our (our being the USA) gas as being "bad" as compared to other countries (low sulfur). I understand that the "Euro" Low SAPS oils are primarily for the EU market. Here in the USA though, I am sure you can use them as long as you keep an eye on your UOA's to know how long you can actually go. 3-5k miles max I am sure.

Jeffs2006EvoIX, BITOG is usually a good site, but unfortunately, in this thread, a lot of myth has been passed just for the sake of argument and trying to prove a personal point, with no interest in a productive discussion.

Gas in California has 10 ppm sulfur -- same as Euro V and Euro VI, the latest Euro standards. Gas elsewhere in US has 30 ppm sulfur -- lower than the 50 ppm Euro IV standard that was in effect until 2008.

ILSAC/API has neither a minimum nor a maximum specified for sulphated ash for gasoline-engine oils. So, according to the logic that the gas in US is high-sulfur so that a high-SAPS oil must be used in US to prevent your gasoline engine from being ruined by sulfur-induced acids after 5,000 miles of oil use, no oil certified by ILSAC/API would protect your engine from being ruined. What kind of logic is that?

Most oils sold in US have sulphated ash around 0.8% - 1.0%. This is not really considered high-SAPS.

Sulfur in fuel is mostly a concern for diesel-engine oils. API CJ-4 has a 1.0% maximum on sulphated ash. API CJ-4 is intended for 15 ppm low-sulfur diesel fuel, which has now become the norm in US. It could also be used with up-to-500-ppm mid-sulfur diesel fuel. API CI-4 and CH-4 are good with up-to-5000-ppm high-sulfur diesel fuel.

So, to bring up sulfur in gasoline in US for motor oil used in gasoline engines is plain nonsense. Japan has the same 10 ppm sulfur standards for gasoline as in Europe and California and ILSAC is a joint US/Japanese consortium that makes the single ILSAC spec in US and Japan for gasoline-engine oils in US and Japan.

What has been failed to be mentioned is the TBN's relation with sulphated ash and TBN retention. TBN needs to stay above 1.0 during the OCI for the oil to provide protection against corrosion. For long OCIs, you need a high initial TBN. High initial TBN requires higher sulphated ash (more detergents), as the detergents are bases that increase the TBN to fight the acids. What is also very important is the so-called TBN-retention properties of the detergents being used, as some detergents can retain the TBN more longer.

You can use a VW 504.00 oil in a gasoline engine instead of a VW 502.00 oil just fine. For very long OCIs with older gasoline engines, use an ACEA A3/B4 oil that has an high initial TBN and made from a quality base stock (such as Mobil 1 0W-40). As I said, TBN retention of the detergents used in the additive package is also as important as the initial TBN. Low-SAPS oils are primarily needed to protect the diesel particulate filters and you must use them whenever specified, whether for a gasoline or a diesel engine.

High-SAPS is becoming a thing of the past. High-SAPS is primarily the ACEA A3/B4 category that provides high initial TBN, a category that seems to be slowly becoming outdated.


1. Most oils sold in the U.S. have 0.8-1.0% of SA. So if 0.8% is max for Mid-SAPS oils, what is then more then 0.8%?
2. Sulfur is bigger problem for diesel engines? Have you heard for gasoline direct injection engines? Obviously you are not familiar with issues of gas in oil in cars with direct injection engines, especially in cars like Passat 2.0TFSI, Audi S4 TFSI (V8) etc.
3. You obviously did not read what we wrote before. All this is mentioned, however, you either did not read it or you just could not figure it out.

On that note, ACEA C3 is superseding ACEA A3/B4, where C3 has same or higher protect properties but lower SAPS (being either Low or Mid-SAPS). SO oils could meet both ACEA A3/B4 as well as ACEA C3. It all depends on manufacturer specs, and some are flexible more then others, some are not. However it seems this is for you too complicated.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
On that note, ACEA C3 is superseding ACEA A3/B4, where C3 has same or higher protect properties but lower SAPS (being either Low or Mid-SAPS). SO oils could meet both ACEA A3/B4 as well as ACEA C3. It all depends on manufacturer specs, and some are flexible more then others, some are not. However it seems this is for you too complicated.

There is no such thing as C3 superseding A3/B4. I've linked the 2012 ACEA specs from Infineum in this thread.

However, if you are saying that OEMs are now recommending C3 instead of A3/B4 (such as VW 504.00 instead of 502.00), this has always been my point. Using low-SAPS oil in gasoline engines won't ruin your engine, even in US where the sulfur in gasoline is a little higher, as I replied to the other poster, asking about a solid reference stating otherwise:

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
If you want to prove your point, stop quoting and arguing about my points and post one respectable reference stating that VW 504.00 can't be used instead of VW 502.00 (in US, Europe, or elsewhere), which is your main point and it's this point of yours that I am saying is false. Otherwise, what you have been posting is nothing but rhetoric.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
(1) You didn't get my point about the sulfur being primarily a concern for diesel-engine oils, where the levels are really high, but not for gasoline-engine oils.

We already have ultra low sulfur diesel fuel in North America, don't we?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: edyvw
On that note, ACEA C3 is superseding ACEA A3/B4, where C3 has same or higher protect properties but lower SAPS (being either Low or Mid-SAPS). SO oils could meet both ACEA A3/B4 as well as ACEA C3. It all depends on manufacturer specs, and some are flexible more then others, some are not. However it seems this is for you too complicated.

There is no such thing as C3 superseding A3/B4. I've linked the 2012 ACEA specs from Infineum in this thread.

However, if you are saying that OEMs are now recommending C3 instead of A3/B4 (such as VW 504.00 instead of 502.00), this has always been my point. Using low-SAPS oil in gasoline engines won't ruin your engine, even in US where the sulfur in gasoline is a little higher, as I replied to the other poster, asking about a solid reference stating otherwise:

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
If you want to prove your point, stop quoting and arguing about my points and post one respectable reference stating that VW 504.00 can't be used instead of VW 502.00 (in US, Europe, or elsewhere), which is your main point and it's this point of yours that I am saying is false. Otherwise, what you have been posting is nothing but rhetoric.

I can only ask you this: Have you ever read any UOA? You know, google it, compare different oils on same engines, read their TBN, cst, flash point, driving habits?
I do not need reference to understand basic issues with oils, engines etc. Fuel in the U.S. has much more sulfur, and other components in fuel are different. You have that in the PDF i posted, but obviously you did not read it.
So I seriously doubt there is any point to waste time finding references for you, because 1. you do not understand, 2. you also do not want to read it.

 

[bobbydavro]

It honestly amazes me. The ability some people have to talk a load of waffle about something they clearly have no clue about

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Can I ask this. Why does the TBN of M1 0w40 and PU 5w40 drop so rapidly? I am not sure what the TBN is for PU 5w40 but after 3k miles in my car it dropped to like 2.7 the M1 is around 12 and after 3k miles it dropped to 3.2 why the quick drop? Then hope the remaining TBN lasts? I think for me? That is why I will not do 10k mile oil changes for that reason. Maybe in N/A motor but not forced induction with DI. Call me conservative I guess.

Do Low SAPS oils like M1 ESP 5w30 with a TBN of around 7 hold their TBN better due to the possibility of better base stocks? Because at the rate 0w40 M1 drops the ESP in my car would be 0 in 3k miles.

Just curious about that.

Thanks guys.

Jeff

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Can I ask this. Why does the TBN of M1 0w40 and PU 5w40 drop so rapidly? I am not sure what the TBN is for PU 5w40 but after 3k miles in my car it dropped to like 2.7

Your engine must be hard on oil. In my car, after over 5K miles, PU 5w-40 went from 10.4 to 6. But this was not my first run of this oil. I've read that the first time you run a particular oil, TBN tends to drop faster. What's also important is how much TAN has increased.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

TAN was 5 on the M1 didn't get a TAN on the PU.

Jeff

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Yes ask EDYVW he knows the 2.0T is VERY tough on oil.

TBN on the M1 was 3.6 vs 3.3 on ultra and the TAN on M1 was 5.1 to be exact.

Jeff

 

[Quattro Pete]

Yeah, that's not good. Most labs would condemn the oil if TAN exceeded TBN, although some modern oils have fairly high starting TAN.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Would this be a concern if I go 504? Im guessing 3k miles and that's about it on the stuff. If I do it. So would the M1 ESP 5w30 be the one to try out the PU L 5w30? Part of me deep down wants to try the Redline Euro low saps too. Dang VW warranty.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Would this be a concern if I go 504? Im guessing 3k miles and that's about it on the stuff. If I do it. So would the M1 ESP 5w30 be the one to try out the PU L 5w30? Part of me deep down wants to try the Redline Euro low saps too. Dang VW warranty.

Well, you are under warranty. So what I would do, stick to M1 or GC or go with M1 ESP. I did on Tig.
Since my CC is out of factory warranty, I will do next OCI with Redline and do UOA. and let's see.
Since you have warranty, do not play with that. I am out of warranty, I will put redline and do UOA at 3K and we will know.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Can I ask this. Why does the TBN of M1 0w40 and PU 5w40 drop so rapidly? I am not sure what the TBN is for PU 5w40 but after 3k miles in my car it dropped to like 2.7 the M1 is around 12 and after 3k miles it dropped to 3.2 why the quick drop? Then hope the remaining TBN lasts? I think for me? That is why I will not do 10k mile oil changes for that reason. Maybe in N/A motor but not forced induction with DI. Call me conservative I guess.

Do Low SAPS oils like M1 ESP 5w30 with a TBN of around 7 hold their TBN better due to the possibility of better base stocks? Because at the rate 0w40 M1 drops the ESP in my car would be 0 in 3k miles.

Just curious about that.

Thanks guys.

Jeff


There's something with your application that depletes the TBN then. My TBN was still at 7 with M1 0w-40 after almost 10,000Km, which is more than twice your interval.

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Would this be a concern if I go 504? Im guessing 3k miles and that's about it on the stuff. If I do it. So would the M1 ESP 5w30 be the one to try out the PU L 5w30? Part of me deep down wants to try the Redline Euro low saps too. Dang VW warranty.


The best way to tell is just to run it and UOA it at specific intervals to monitor the TBN. You won't have to do this type of experiment all the time once you figure out how the oil responds in your particular case. You may have to UOA a couple of fills as Quattro Pete said, but after that, you can either switch back or be confident in the M1 ESP depending on the results.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Would this be a concern if I go 504? Im guessing 3k miles and that's about it on the stuff. If I do it. So would the M1 ESP 5w30 be the one to try out the PU L 5w30? Part of me deep down wants to try the Redline Euro low saps too. Dang VW warranty.


The best way to tell is just to run it and UOA it at specific intervals to monitor the TBN. You won't have to do this type of experiment all the time once you figure out how the oil responds in your particular case. You may have to UOA a couple of fills as Quattro Pete said, but after that, you can either switch back or be confident in the M1 ESP depending on the results.

I am already running ESP in same engine, so he can just wait for me to do UOA at 3K.

 

[il_signore97]

^Yes, I'm looking forward to hearing about your results as well. We have a few VW 2.0T products in our family!!!

 

[bobbydavro]

TBN drop isnt always a bad thing, it shows the oil is doing it job and neutralising acids.

What the TAN is doing is more indicative of engine oil life.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Maybe the ethanol in California gas is causing the tbn to drop so quickly in the 502 oils I have tried.

EDYVW one problem is my car will be due for an oil change before your 3k mile UOA comes out. Sucks

Jeff

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Maybe the ethanol in California gas is causing the tbn to drop so quickly in the 502 oils I have tried.

We have plenty of ethanol in our gas here in IL as well.