Am I right? or am I wrong?

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I will see how the next UOA looks QP. I have had M1 in the car for the past 2 oil changes. I tested it at 3k miles and this oil change will be at 5k miles. I will most likely just stick to the M1 0w40. PU is just too dificult to find and will actually cost me double the price. The 504 oils? After reading and reading, I just think are not worth the risk. As it is, even with a 502 oil I am looking at 5k OCI's anyway. So with a 504 I would be looking at 3k I am sure.

I just want whats best for the car is all. Thats why its dificult to make a decision on the oil. Especially living in a dusy, HOT area, and maybe a track day here and there? I need an oil that can hold up. Not "Hope" it holds up. Thats all.

Jeff

I told you already, I bought 12 pack of M1 ESP. Wait until I do analysis at 3K, and then I will see whether to stay with it. If I do, that means that UOA will indicate that oil can do 5K!
I still think good run now and then, revving engine to redline regularly, helps with intake deposits.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I will see how the next UOA looks QP. I have had M1 in the car for the past 2 oil changes. I tested it at 3k miles and this oil change will be at 5k miles. I will most likely just stick to the M1 0w40. PU is just too dificult to find and will actually cost me double the price. The 504 oils? After reading and reading, I just think are not worth the risk. As it is, even with a 502 oil I am looking at 5k OCI's anyway. So with a 504 I would be looking at 3k I am sure.

I just want whats best for the car is all. Thats why its dificult to make a decision on the oil. Especially living in a dusy, HOT area, and maybe a track day here and there? I need an oil that can hold up. Not "Hope" it holds up. Thats all.

Jeff

I told you already, I bought 12 pack of M1 ESP. Wait until I do analysis at 3K, and then I will see whether to stay with it. If I do, that means that UOA will indicate that oil can do 5K!
I still think good run now and then, revving engine to redline regularly, helps with intake deposits.
IMO I would not do a UOA at 3k miles. There's a lot of cleaning go on early in the cycle. Wait until 5k.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I will see how the next UOA looks QP. I have had M1 in the car for the past 2 oil changes. I tested it at 3k miles and this oil change will be at 5k miles. I will most likely just stick to the M1 0w40. PU is just too dificult to find and will actually cost me double the price. The 504 oils? After reading and reading, I just think are not worth the risk. As it is, even with a 502 oil I am looking at 5k OCI's anyway. So with a 504 I would be looking at 3k I am sure.

I just want whats best for the car is all. Thats why its dificult to make a decision on the oil. Especially living in a dusy, HOT area, and maybe a track day here and there? I need an oil that can hold up. Not "Hope" it holds up. Thats all.

Jeff

I told you already, I bought 12 pack of M1 ESP. Wait until I do analysis at 3K, and then I will see whether to stay with it. If I do, that means that UOA will indicate that oil can do 5K!
I still think good run now and then, revving engine to redline regularly, helps with intake deposits.
IMO I would not do a UOA at 3k miles. There's a lot of cleaning go on early in the cycle. Wait until 5k.

Well, yeah, but question is whether M1ESP can hold TBN for 5K.
If it was High-SAPS oil that would be OK, but since it is Low-SAPS oil, I need to see first how it will hold TBN.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I will see how the next UOA looks QP. I have had M1 in the car for the past 2 oil changes. I tested it at 3k miles and this oil change will be at 5k miles. I will most likely just stick to the M1 0w40. PU is just too dificult to find and will actually cost me double the price. The 504 oils? After reading and reading, I just think are not worth the risk. As it is, even with a 502 oil I am looking at 5k OCI's anyway. So with a 504 I would be looking at 3k I am sure.

I just want whats best for the car is all. Thats why its dificult to make a decision on the oil. Especially living in a dusy, HOT area, and maybe a track day here and there? I need an oil that can hold up. Not "Hope" it holds up. Thats all.

Jeff

I told you already, I bought 12 pack of M1 ESP. Wait until I do analysis at 3K, and then I will see whether to stay with it. If I do, that means that UOA will indicate that oil can do 5K!
I still think good run now and then, revving engine to redline regularly, helps with intake deposits.
IMO I would not do a UOA at 3k miles. There's a lot of cleaning go on early in the cycle. Wait until 5k.

Well, yeah, but question is whether M1ESP can hold TBN for 5K.
If it was High-SAPS oil that would be OK, but since it is Low-SAPS oil, I need to see first how it will hold TBN.


Of course it can. 7k may be a stretch.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Here is a response I received from Redline when I inquired about their low saps 5w30 Euro oil.

Jeff, our regular 5W30 is a better fit in that engine.

I personally own a 2011 CC with that engine and run the 5W30, not the Euro Series. The cleanliness that comes from our motor oil is more than enough to likely combat the issue you mention.

The Euro Series is a pretty specific fit for the TDIs...

Our SI-1 fuel cleaner will help a lot as well.



I don't think "they" get it. The whole intake valve deposit issue. On paper the low saps looks pretty close to the standard 5w30 in HTHS and VI. TBN is always lower on RL I believe due to the POE base if I'm not mistaken. I would change at 3k miles. Safe to use? Or Not?

Jeff

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Can anyone get a hold of Pablo and ask if Amsoils low saps euro oil is PAO or group 3? Curious about that as well.

Jeff

 

[skyactiv]

I'm running Pennzoil Ultra Euro L 5W30 with a bottled date of Sep 4th, 2013 in my 13' GTI. My GTI is a manual with the CCTA engine. I dumped the dealer 10K Pennzoil Ultra 5W40 at 15K. I have 1800 miles left on the Euro L and will do a UOA with a TBN and maybe a TAN.
I will bump this post to inform when I post a UOA.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: skyactiv
I'm running Pennzoil Ultra Euro L 5W30 with a bottled date of Sep 4th, 2013 in my 13' GTI. My GTI is a manual with the CCTA engine. I dumped the dealer 10K Pennzoil Ultra 5W40 at 15K. I have 1800 miles left on the Euro L and will do a UOA with a TBN and maybe a TAN.
I will bump this post to inform when I post a UOA.


Thanks would appreciate that. How did your GTI run on the 5w30 PU? Compared to the 5w40?

How many miles you running the 5w30 for? Please don't say 10k miles??

Your dealer puts in PU? Mine puts in Castrol 5w40 yuck!

Jeff

 

[skyactiv]

I took my VW in for it's free 10K oil/filter change to a Sonic Automotive dealer. They have dealers across the country. I think they have a large Pennzoil contract. The parts guy said Pennzoil Ultra 5W40.

I assume the 5W30 isn't much thinner but my car instantly felt a touch quicker in the higher rev range. I've burned a very small amount in the 3200ish miles so far. Like 2mm on the dipstick, not enough to add any so I think it's GTL based. I'm changing it @5K.
I need to go ahead and order a UOA kit.
Would like to use Oil Analyzers as they include TBN but am not sure if they offer TAN or if oxidation and nitration takes place of it?

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: il_signore97
Mercedes is a classic example. In Europe, MB 229.51 can be used in all engines, gas or diesel.

Are you sure about this? I've looked at MB UK owner's manuals, and they clearly state to use 229.5 in gas engines and 22x.x1 in diesel engines.



Sorry for posting this so much farther down in this thread, but I found a snippet of the MB bulletin where they retracted the statement that 229.51 oils could not supersede 229.5 oils in gasoline engines due to ethanol content in fuel:

Originally Posted By: MB Bulletin

As a precautionary measure and in an effort to better protect Mercedes-Benz engines from the potential long term effects of the increased use of ethanol., DCAG has decided to differentiate the engine oils that are used for Gasoline and Diesel engines.


As such, Mercedes-Benz 229.5 0W40 engine oil must be used for all gasoline engines including AMG. Mercedes-Benz recommends the use of Mobil 1 0W40 for all gasoline engines including AMG, with the exception of the SLR. 0W40 engine oil is more effective in resisting the possible corrosive effects of acidic moisture that can be caused by the increased use of ethanol. The SLR requires specification 229.3, Mobil 1 5W50 oil. To maintain the integrity of the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF), specification 229.51 must be used for Diesel engines.



So basically, there was some kind of idea that 229.51 oils superseded 229.5 oils for all engines at one point, but due to ethanol problems, they retracted that. I guess they retracted globally because Europe is now very much embracing E5 and slowly E10 gasoline like we have here in the US.

 

[Ayrton]

il_signore97 -

That is 100 percent correct! Indeed, I'm pretty sure 229.51 was never intended for gasoline cars.

Some U.S. dealers were confused and thought 229.51 was newer than 229.5 but that was several years ago, Mercedes clarified it for them.

As you say, even in Europe for gasoline cars, Mercedes-Benz says 229.5. It makes sense to me.

I'm not sure how this idea got around that in Europe Mercedes allows 229.51 in gasoline cars.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: Ayrton
il_signore97 -

That is 100 percent correct! Indeed, I'm pretty sure 229.51 was never intended for gasoline cars.

Some U.S. dealers were confused and thought 229.51 was newer than 229.5 but that was several years ago, Mercedes clarified it for them.

As you say, even in Europe for gasoline cars, Mercedes-Benz says 229.5. It makes sense to me.

I'm not sure how this idea got around that in Europe Mercedes allows 229.51 in gasoline cars.


Maybe because VW allows 504/507 in its gas powered cars so people assumed 229.51 was the same??

My guess.

Jeff

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: Ayrton
il_signore97 -

That is 100 percent correct! Indeed, I'm pretty sure 229.51 was never intended for gasoline cars.

Some U.S. dealers were confused and thought 229.51 was newer than 229.5 but that was several years ago, Mercedes clarified it for them.

As you say, even in Europe for gasoline cars, Mercedes-Benz says 229.5. It makes sense to me.

I'm not sure how this idea got around that in Europe Mercedes allows 229.51 in gasoline cars.



Actually, it looks like it was MB that made the statement in the first place. I found the initial TSB (precursor to the one that I just posted previously)...

Originally Posted By: Initial MB TSB on 229.51 Oil

"Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 is formulated to meet the latest Mercedes-Benz engine oil specification MB 229.51. This new formulation is designed to offer high levels of performance for Mercedes-Benz diesel and gasoline engines as detailed in the Dealer Technical Bulletin P-B-18.00/17d dated April 13, 2006."

Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 replaces Mobil 1 OW-40, and will be provided to dealers based on deployment through ExxonMobil distributor network.

To prepare for the transition you must draw down Mobil 1 0W-40 bulk tanks to a minimum 20% level in preparation for the new product."


So as you can see, in 2006, MB started to make the recommendation of replacing 229.5 with 229.51 oils universally (although I'm not sure which region(s) this bulletin applies to - could very well be Europe only, or it could be globally - don't know).

Below, you can then see a statement from MB retracting the above recommendation:

Originally Posted By: MB Bulletin


Mobil 1 Formula M 5W-40 has recently been approved for Mercedes-Benz MB229.5 oil specification and is recommended for use in ALL gasoline engines including AMG (except SLR) and Maybach. Mobil 1 Formula M 5W-40 engine oil is similarly effective to 0W40 in resisting the possible corrosive effects of acidic moisture that can be caused by the increased use of ethanol in US gasolines.

As a reminder, to maintain the integrity of the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF), specification 229.51 oil must be used for Diesel engines. Mercedes-Benz recommends Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W40 for MY2007 and newer Mercedes-Benz Diesels.



This quote goes with the other part of the bulletin I posted previously (a few posts back in this thread). I'm finding them piecemeal everywhere!

We can see that the above part of the TSB details the "invention" of the NON-ESP Mobil 1 5W40 Formula M stuff that now most US and Canadian dealers use for gasoline MB engines approved to 229.5 spec.

Despite all of the back and forth about this, what I personally get out of it is that a low-saps oil can sufficiently protect a gasoline engine, but cannot neutralize acids for the entire service interval that Mercedes has spec'd on their gasoline engines in places with Ethanol (such as North America). So that's why they strictly prohibit 229.51 in gas engines as per TSB. However, I think that if someone wanted to run a low-SAPS 229.51 oil in a gas engine, it wouldn't be a problem as long as drain intervals were determined carefully. This likely also applies to the OP's VW.

 

[Ayrton]

While I realize it makes less sense, I was somewhat familiar with what you posted. I am pretty sure this happened to US dealers only. I do believe that is where the bulletin was directed, to the US dealers. A genius probably thought it would be simple to have the same oil for both types of vehicles. I believe this was corrected quickly. They give MBUSA quite a bit of power to make decisions like these. Thankfully they corrected this one. I have written Daimler in Germany and they refuse to write you back, you get a letter back quick, but from MBUSA in NJ. MBUSA really controls the cars and dealers here.

It's the entire reason they have two specs and not one. You cannot get approved for both specs with one product.


What's also a bit of disappointing is that non-diesel (229.5) Formula M 5w-40. That product has a TBN that starts at 8.0.

Sure, it's better than the 5.5 (according to blackstone) that the M 229.51 version starts at.

However, for an oil that in some Model Years go out to 13,000 miles, 8.0 isn't that stellar. It's certainly a money saver option instead of the 0w-40. That gas version of Formula M seems to be formulated to just sneak by the 229.5 specs to save money for dealers who buy it in such mass quantities. Honestly, there are some dealers that use Ultra 5w-40 or Synpower HST, those probably are better products if you're going 13,000 miles than using the 8.0 TBN Formula M gas product. When I still had oil change at dealer, I would take in my M1 0w-40.

 

[il_signore97]

I absolutely agree with you Ayrton. The non-ESP Formula M was most certainly a decision based on cost. It is also likely that the previous decision to use 229.51 in all cars regardless of engine type was also based on cost and inventory consolidation.

I faithfully use M1 0W40 or true equivalent when changing the oil on my Benz or BMW vehicles within the family. No point going to the dealer to get an inferior product, and I certainly enjoy taking advantage of the 12,500 mile drain intervals (or once yearly, which every comes first) as specified up here in Canada. I would want the best available approved product in there for that kind of service.