Am I right? or am I wrong?

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Maybe the ethanol in California gas is causing the tbn to drop so quickly in the 502 oils I have tried.

We have plenty of ethanol in our gas here in IL as well.


Maybe it's the alien metal VW used to make the block with? Ha ha.

Who knows. The turbo? The DI perhaps?

Jeff

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
The turbo? The DI perhaps?

Yup. These two combined would be my guess. Plus your oil capacity isn't particularly large either.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
The turbo? The DI perhaps?

Yup. These two combined would be my guess. Plus your oil capacity isn't particularly large either.



Yeah the motor takes 5 qts.

Does the 30w 502 or 504 oils stay in grade better than the 40w's?

Jeff

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Does the 30w 502 or 504 oils stay in grade better than the 40w's?

"Staying in grade" can be a very misleading statistic because grades are just ranges. Most 502/504 oils are either at the high end of the 30-grade range or low end of the 40-grade range. So as you can imagine, even a small viscosity drop can make a thin 40-grade oil fall into the 30-grade. On the other hand, it would take significant viscosity drop for a heavy 30-grade oil to become 20-grade. Instead of comparing grades, you're better off comparing % drop in actual cSt viscosity (virgin vs used).

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Does the 30w 502 or 504 oils stay in grade better than the 40w's?

"Staying in grade" can be a very misleading statistic because grades are just ranges. Most 502/504 oils are either at the high end of the 30-grade range or low end of the 40-grade range. So as you can imagine, even a small viscosity drop can make a thin 40-grade oil fall into the 30-grade. On the other hand, it would take significant viscosity drop for a heavy 30-grade oil to become 20-grade. Instead of comparing grades, you're better off comparing % drop in actual cSt viscosity (virgin vs used).



cSt for M1 0w40 after 3k miles is 12.0 cSt for PU 5w40 was 11.20 after 3k miles. Per my Blackstone lab UOA's.

Jeff

 

[Quattro Pete]

Yeah, so what's your point?

We already know your engine is hard on oil.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Not really a point more of a concern if this would be a problem while using a 504 oil vs. a 502 is all.

Seems that M1 ESP 5w30 seems like a pretty robust oil.

At least on paper. I may give it a try. Would like to wait for EDYVW and his UOA but my car is due for an oil change very soon.

Jeff

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
M1 ESP 5W30 (which has also PAO and Easter, but not in sufficient amounts to be sold as Fully Synthetic in Germany) has NOACK 5.7% (that is questionable and it is based on VOA by Blackstone).

5.6% according to that large Russian oil forum that tests various oils. Not sure which lab they use, but I don't think it's Blackstone.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: edyvw
M1 ESP 5W30 (which has also PAO and Easter, but not in sufficient amounts to be sold as Fully Synthetic in Germany) has NOACK 5.7% (that is questionable and it is based on VOA by Blackstone).

5.6% according to that large Russian oil forum that tests various oils. Not sure which lab they use, but I don't think it's Blackstone.

Oh I thought it is Blackstone.
Still, has 229.51, which is good enough.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Oh I thought it is Blackstone.

The format of the report is different. Plus, I wasn't aware that Blackstone even had the tools to test Noack.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Oh I thought it is Blackstone.

The format of the report is different. Plus, I wasn't aware that Blackstone even had the tools to test Noack.

Well, I really did not pay attention. I did not see actual report, just read what others said.
Bottom line, it is 229.51.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Here are the Stats on the RL Euro 5w30 Low Saps. What do you guys think?


ACEA Service Class C3
API Service Class SN/SM/SL/CF
SAE Viscosity Grade (Motor Oil) 5W30
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 11.6
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 69
Viscosity Index 164
CCS Viscosity, Poise, @ °C 63@-30
Pour Point, °C -45
Pour Point, °F -49
Flash Point, °C 232
Flash Point, °F 450
NOACK Evaporation Loss,1hr @ 482°F (250°C), % 6
HTHS Vis, cP @150°C, ASTM D4741 3.7

Jeff

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Does low SAPS oil compromise longevity at all since most have less additives? how does this affect wear? Just curios vs the 502 oils...or High Saps.

Jeff

 

[Ayrton]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Does low SAPS oil compromise longevity at all since most have less additives? how does this affect wear? Just curios vs the 502 oils...or High Saps.

Jeff


Longevity of the oil or engine? The oil won't last as long but with carefully selected and appropriate length OCI, wear might not be affected.

Does VW allow the use of low saps oils in US cars (sorry this was probably already discussed).

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: Ayrton

Does low SAPS oil compromise longevity at all since most have less additives? how does this affect wear? Just curios vs the 502 oils...or High Saps.

Jeff


Longevity of the oil or engine? The oil won't last as long but with carefully selected and appropriate length OCI, wear might not be affected.

Does VW allow the use of low saps oils in US cars (sorry this was probably already discussed).

[/quote

Yes they allow it per the manual, but they recommend the use of a 502 oil in North America.

The Goal is to help reduce the risk of intake valve deposits on the DI motor with the use of Low SAPS. 3k OCI's would be a must in the USA.

Jeff

 

[Ayrton]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Originally Posted By: Ayrton

Does low SAPS oil compromise longevity at all since most have less additives? how does this affect wear? Just curios vs the 502 oils...or High Saps.

Jeff


Longevity of the oil or engine? The oil won't last as long but with carefully selected and appropriate length OCI, wear might not be affected.

Does VW allow the use of low saps oils in US cars (sorry this was probably already discussed).

[/quote

Yes they allow it per the manual, but they recommend the use of a 502 oil in North America.

The Goal is to help reduce the risk of intake valve deposits on the DI motor with the use of Low SAPS. 3k OCI's would be a must in the USA.

Jeff


That is cool to know the manual allows it. Yeah, I understand your reasoning behind considering it.

Good luck in your decision. I hope one day people will no longer have to worry about intake valve deposits with direct injection. However, it's a great engine even if it needed a cleaning a few years down the road. I was considering a car with that engine last year, and it wasn't going to stop me.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

The DI technology has been around for a LONG time in a gasoline application. MB being a founding father so to speak in the technology going back to the 60's if Im not mistaken. Its not a "new" technology.

The thing is, in Europe the DI motors there do not have carbon intake valve problems. The reasons are piling to the "why" but some facts are the gas quality, and oil used. Others are cold start up on cars here in the USA are different than in Europe due to our emission standards.

Some companies like Toyota, use a port injector to help with cold starts and such, a by product of having the additional injector is to wash the valves with fuel. If all DI motors in the USA had this? The deposit issue would not exist.

504 oils according to Lubrizol claim up to 47% LESS intake valve deposits if you use a Low Saps oil vs. High Saps. How this translates from the Lab to the "Real World" is another story. I do believe its worth a shot though. I just dont want to sacrafice engine wear, for cleaner valves. Getting the valves cleaned at the dealer every 60k miles or so is like $400. Thats cheap compared to wear of an engines internal parts.

Im still on the fence about it. What is making it difficult for me to decide is my UOA's of the High Saps oil I am currently using has been less than "stellar" after 3k miles, so how is a Low SAPS oil going to hold up? Get me?

Jeff

 

[Ayrton]

I can see your dilemma. It's hard to believe your TBN depletion in just 3000 miles. That is wild.

Good luck in your decision! However, don't forget to enjoy the car too! You obviously are going to take better care of the car than 99 percent of people, so there isn't much more you can do.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Ayrton
I can see your dilemma. It's hard to believe your TBN depletion in just 3000 miles. That is wild.

He keeps jumping from one oil to another. Potential additive clash is responsible for his quick TBN dive on each first OCI.

Notwithstanding, his engine is just tough on oil to begin with.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

I will see how the next UOA looks QP. I have had M1 in the car for the past 2 oil changes. I tested it at 3k miles and this oil change will be at 5k miles. I will most likely just stick to the M1 0w40. PU is just too dificult to find and will actually cost me double the price. The 504 oils? After reading and reading, I just think are not worth the risk. As it is, even with a 502 oil I am looking at 5k OCI's anyway. So with a 504 I would be looking at 3k I am sure.

I just want whats best for the car is all. Thats why its dificult to make a decision on the oil. Especially living in a dusy, HOT area, and maybe a track day here and there? I need an oil that can hold up. Not "Hope" it holds up. Thats all.

Jeff