Am I right? or am I wrong?

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
In reply to Gokhan (having issues with quoting)

Yes there is, the DPF test requires lower SAPS. This is very much part of the specification !

Also can we start talking about VW specs correctly, they don't exist alone and should be paired. 502 is different depending on what it is paired with, 505 or 505 01. Also you cannot claim 502/505 01 and 504/507 on one oil.

504/507 supersedes 502/505 except in markets that deem 502/505necessary, unfortunately it's not that clear due to the global fuel mix but VW are working on resolving this. 504/507 is very much a diesel specification for cars with DPFs and gasoline cars with FSI engines (except in places like china and Russia where 592 is recommended)

Yes, agreed, however, my argument isn't really that VW 504 00 requires low SAPS but it's that VW 502 00 doesn't require high SAPS.

On the contrary, ACEA A3/B3 and A3/B4 do require high SAPS but then VW 502 00 doesn't require ACEA A3/B3 or A3/B4. There are ACEA A3/B3 or A3/B4 oils out there that are also VW 502 00 but satisfying these extended-drain (high-SAPS, high initial TBN) ACEA categories isn't required for VW 502 00.


Wrong 502/505 or 502/505 01 specs have to have ACEA. You can't claim them alone. This is part of the specifications requirement. As said '502' depends which spec it is paired to for the SAP level.

It's no surprise as the head of oil approval at VW is also the ACEA chair

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
No oil will have GF5 and 504/507 so that's a moot issue.

502 is certainly not becoming outdated either.

Again, I said a respectable oil. Would you trust any oil with less than 600 ppm P of ZDDP in it to provide adequate wear protection?

In a few years, don't be surprised when VW starts requiring VW 504 00 for all their new gasoline engines.


That wasn't my point. Your knowledge still appears lacking about specification, despite the information I've given, and you seem to ignore everything other than the physical chemical properties of the oil. Again you deviate away from my point. When did I ever mention less than 600ppm Phos? Regardless if it passed all the requirements I would have no issue

VW won't be recommending 504/507 in all their new gasoline engines for a long time. They need a massive change to the global fuel pool for that to happen. Assuming of course they stay on 504/507

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
No oil will have GF5 and 504/507 so that's a moot issue.

502 is certainly not becoming outdated either.

Again, I said a respectable oil. Would you trust any oil with less than 600 ppm P of ZDDP in it to provide adequate wear protection?

In a few years, don't be surprised when VW starts requiring VW 504 00 for all their new gasoline engines.


That wasn't my point. Your knowledge still appears lacking about specification, despite the information I've given, and you seem to ignore everything other than the physical chemical properties of the oil. Again you deviate away from my point. When did I ever mention less than 600ppm Phos? Regardless if it passed all the requirements I would have no issue

VW won't be recommending 504/507 in all their new gasoline engines for a long time. They need a massive change to the global fuel pool for that to happen. Assuming of course they stay on 504/507

Didn't you bring up the phosphorus yourself? I was saying that it's a moot issue because most oils these days have phosphorus between 600 and 800 ppm, not any different than for VW 502 00. In fact, it's 700 - 900 ppm required for ACEA C3. You're right that ACEA C3 will restrict the sulphated ash to 0.8% if paired with VW 504 00.

Yes, one problem with 504 00 is higher-quality base oil (lower NOACK), which makes the transition difficult.

 

[bobbydavro]

Wow. You really haven't read anything I have written. You keep reading those specs and pretending that matters is what numbers fit the most specs

Btw Quattro Pete brought up Phos...

I'll summarise a few things I said as you seem to have missed them the first time
-A noack of 11% doesn't need anything fancy for base oils. Most 502 oils have a noack of 10 due to MB
-504/507 ash level is set by the DPF engine test
-No 504 507 oil will pass the Seq VID to claim GF5
-VW specs should be paired. 502 cannot be claimed alone
-504 isn't the newest VW spec.
-VW state '502' oils need ACEA A3/B4

I've tried to help here as there is some misunderstand about specifications, and oil requirements / properties. However I feel it is falling on deaf ears .

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Wow. You really haven't read anything I have written. You keep reading those specs and pretending that matters is what numbers fit the most specs

Btw Quattro Pete brought up Phos...

I'll summarise a few things I said as you seem to have missed them the first time
-A noack of 11% doesn't need anything fancy for base oils. Most 502 oils have a noack of 10 due to MB
-504/507 ash level is set by the DPF engine test
-No 504 507 oil will pass the Seq VID to claim GF5
-VW specs should be paired. 502 cannot be claimed alone
-504 isn't the newest VW spec.
-VW state '502' oils need ACEA A3/B4

I've tried to help here as there is some misunderstand about specifications, and oil requirements / properties. However I feel it is falling on deaf ears .

Perhaps you're reflecting on yourself when you call deaf ears.

Here is an ACEA C3 VW 502.00 oil: Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 C3. There goes your theory about the requirement of ACEA A3/B4 or the requirement of high SAPS for VW 502.00.

 

[bobbydavro]

Well found. That was qualified on the old 502/505 version. As mentioned specs are always being updated. Hence 505 is now one of the newest specs, updated end of 2012 and new approvals require A3/B3.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Wow. You really haven't read anything I have written. You keep reading those specs and pretending that matters is what numbers fit the most specs

Btw Quattro Pete brought up Phos...

I'll summarise a few things I said as you seem to have missed them the first time
-A noack of 11% doesn't need anything fancy for base oils. Most 502 oils have a noack of 10 due to MB
-504/507 ash level is set by the DPF engine test
-No 504 507 oil will pass the Seq VID to claim GF5
-VW specs should be paired. 502 cannot be claimed alone
-504 isn't the newest VW spec.
-VW state '502' oils need ACEA A3/B4

I've tried to help here as there is some misunderstand about specifications, and oil requirements / properties. However I feel it is falling on deaf ears .

Perhaps you're reflecting on yourself when you call deaf ears.

Here is an ACEA C3 VW 502.00 oil: Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 C3. There goes your theory about the requirement of ACEA A3/B4 or the requirement of high SAPS for VW 502.00.


LOL.
C3 is Mid-SAPS or Low-SAPS.
I really do not understand how you did not pick up by now that specs are unique to the manufacturer. ACEA is much more stringent then API, but not as much as Porsche, NMW or MB. Both ACEA and API are much more flexible then OEM specs.
Maybe something is in that oil that meets 502.00. Being Mid-SAPS, it cannot meet for example VW 505.01. It is chemistry, it is not 2+2 equals 4.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Wow. You really haven't read anything I have written. You keep reading those specs and pretending that matters is what numbers fit the most specs

Btw Quattro Pete brought up Phos...

I'll summarise a few things I said as you seem to have missed them the first time
-A noack of 11% doesn't need anything fancy for base oils. Most 502 oils have a noack of 10 due to MB
-504/507 ash level is set by the DPF engine test
-No 504 507 oil will pass the Seq VID to claim GF5
-VW specs should be paired. 502 cannot be claimed alone
-504 isn't the newest VW spec.
-VW state '502' oils need ACEA A3/B4

I've tried to help here as there is some misunderstand about specifications, and oil requirements / properties. However I feel it is falling on deaf ears .

Perhaps you're reflecting on yourself when you call deaf ears.

Here is an ACEA C3 VW 502.00 oil: Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 C3. There goes your theory about the requirement of ACEA A3/B4 or the requirement of high SAPS for VW 502.00.


LOL.
C3 is Mid-SAPS oil, and supersedes ACEA A3/B4.
In order to have C3 spec, it is by given that meets A3/B4.

This is total nonsense.

ACEA C3-12 (12 as in 2012) is for emissions protection specifically. It has a 0.8% "maximum" limit for sulphated ash.

ACEA A3/B4-12 is for extended service. It has a 1.0% "minimum" limit for sulphated ash.

Therefore, the two categories are entirely incompatible and neither does or can supersede the other.

Reference: 2012 ACEA categories

 

[edyvw]

Quote:
I think we have practically reached an agreement.

Detergency requirement, which is dictated by initial TBN or sulphated ash, is no different for VW 502 00 than for VW 504 00.

Take Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 for example. It's certified for both VW 502 00 and VW 504 00 but not for ACEA A3/B4. My point again: All VW 504 00 oils also satisfy all VW 502 00 requirements.


Quote:
YES, they meet, but not in the U.S. or Russia.
In the U.S. or Russia VW504.00/507.00 cannot replace VW502.00.
In layman terms: VW thinks that for the U.S. market, for gas engines, VW502.00 is of "higher" quality then VW504.00/507.00, because of specifics of the U.S market or Russian market. The reason why VW says it supersedes VW502.00 is low sulphur content in EU market, saying VW504.00/507.00 will have enough TBN to prevent oxidation of oil, but AT THE SAME TIME, preserve emission system, which VW502.00 are not capable of, but ONLY on the EU market. So basically, it could be same base stock, difference is impact on emission system.
That just proves, that VW504.00/507.00 does not have anything to do with quality of lubrication compare to VW502.00, but with sole purpose of preserving emission systems and less deposits on intake valves.
So from point of lubrication, again, some VW502.00 are better then some VW504.00/507.00 and vice versa.

Quote:
Here is the datasheet for Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 in US. It's clearly specified for both VW 502 00 and VW 504 00; so, there goes your theory.

I'll repeat one more time: There is nothing in the VW 502 00 spec that requires more SAPS than in the VW 504 00 spec.

Geez, it says: MOBIL 1 RECOMMENDS this oil to be used where VW502.00 is recommended.
Now guess what? That oil is primarily made for EU market. It is on the packaging that is unique for Europe, and it is made in Finland. That is why it is more expensive.
I already explained all this, but seriously doubt you read it or understand it!

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Well found. That was qualified on the old 502/505 version. As mentioned specs are always being updated. Hence 505 is now one of the newest specs, updated end of 2012 and new approvals require A3/B3.

First, 505.01 is entirely incompatible with A3/B3. 505.01 has a "maximum" limit of 0.8% on sulphated ash, whereas A3/B3 has a "minimum" limit of 0.9%. The two categories are for different types of oils.

Second, I won't take your word on the VW requirements for ACEA certifications. In fact, according to the table I posted earlier, VW does not require any ACEA certification except for the VW 501.01 category. See the first row in the following table for ACEA performance level required, where there is an explicit "-" for every VW category except 501.01:

Unfortunately, it looks like you've sent so much misinformation our way and then you blamed us for deaf ears.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Well found. That was qualified on the old 502/505 version. As mentioned specs are always being updated. Hence 505 is now one of the newest specs, updated end of 2012 and new approvals require A3/B3.

First, 505.01 is entirely incompatible with A3/B3. 505.01 has a "maximum" limit of 0.8% on sulphated ash, whereas A3/B3 has a "minimum" limit of 0.9%. The two categories are for different types of oils.

Second, I won't take your word on the VW requirements for ACEA certifications. In fact, according to the table I posted earlier, VW does not require any ACEA certification except for the VW 501.01 category. See the first row in the following table for ACEA performance level required, where there is an explicit "-" for every VW category except 501.01:

Unfortunately, it looks like you've sent so much misinformation our way and then you blamed us for deaf ears.


LOL. Yes you are right, ACEA A3/B4 is Full-SAPS, but you chart is horrible. Since when VW504.00/507.00 has max limit of 1.5% of sulfated ash, when VW PDF says something completely different?

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Well found. That was qualified on the old 502/505 version. As mentioned specs are always being updated. Hence 505 is now one of the newest specs, updated end of 2012 and new approvals require A3/B3.

First, 505.01 is entirely incompatible with A3/B3. 505.01 has a "maximum" limit of 0.8% on sulphated ash, whereas A3/B3 has a "minimum" limit of 0.9%. The two categories are for different types of oils.

Second, I won't take your word on the VW requirements for ACEA certifications. In fact, according to the table I posted earlier, VW does not require any ACEA certification except for the VW 501.01 category. See the first row in the following table for ACEA performance level required, where there is an explicit "-" for every VW category except 501.01:

Unfortunately, it looks like you've sent so much misinformation our way and then you blamed us for deaf ears.


LOL. Yes you are right, ACEA A3/B4 is Full-SAPS, but you chart is horrible. Since when VW504.00/507.00 has max limit of 1.5% of sulfated ash, when VW PDF says something completely different?

My chart? Send your complaints to Afton Chemical if you think there are inaccuracies.

 

[edyvw]

What do you think? VW claims one thing and Afton Chemical claim another. So your argument is that Afton Chemicals knows better then VW what are VW requirements?
This is becoming ridiculous. Read again VW PDF and see Low-SAPS levels!

 

[Gokhan]

There is hardly any info in the rather informal VW presentation. If you doubt the whole Afton specs, which happens to be from one of the major additive companies in the world, go find the formal spec document from VW and we'll discuss.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
There is hardly any info in the rather informal VW presentation. If you doubt the whole Afton specs, which happens to be from one of the major additive companies in the world, go find the formal spec document from VW and we'll discuss.

"Informal" VW presentation signed by the actual person, downloaded from API. Are you serious? Give me ANY, ANY VW 504.00/507.00 oil that has 1.5% sulfated ash? Do not be naive.
We will discuss when you grow up!

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
There is hardly any info in the rather informal VW presentation. If you doubt the whole Afton specs, which happens to be from one of the major additive companies in the world, go find the formal spec document from VW and we'll discuss.

"Informal" VW presentation signed by the actual person, downloaded from API. Are you serious? Give me ANY, ANY VW 504.00/507.00 oil that has 1.5% sulfated ash? Do not be naive.
We will discuss when you grow up!

An informal presentation is an informal presentation. On top of that, there are hardly any specs in there. So, it's silly to point it out as a reference for the VW 50x.0y specs.

I'm not even disputing your claim that the SA limit on the 504.00/507.00 is explicitly 0.8%, not just through the DPF tests. You and the other guy have been making false claims about all 502.00 oils being high-SAPS and I gave at least one solid counterexample of that (Magnatec). You then kept making other false claims about 502.00 and ACEA A3/B3 and A3/B4. You really don't care about the true understanding of oils, actual meaning of TBN, etc. but insist on being a spec guy or read-the-back-of-the bottle guy.

You have been nothing but argumentative. You haven't brought anything positive to this discussion. You only argue for the sake of arguing and don't care about learning.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
There is hardly any info in the rather informal VW presentation. If you doubt the whole Afton specs, which happens to be from one of the major additive companies in the world, go find the formal spec document from VW and we'll discuss.

"Informal" VW presentation signed by the actual person, downloaded from API. Are you serious? Give me ANY, ANY VW 504.00/507.00 oil that has 1.5% sulfated ash? Do not be naive.
We will discuss when you grow up!

An informal presentation is an informal presentation. On top of that, there are hardly any specs in there. So, it's silly to point it out as a reference for the VW 50x.0y specs.

I'm not even disputing your claim that the SA limit on the 504.00/507.00 is explicitly lower than 1.5%, not just through the DPF tests. You and the other guy have been making false claims about all 502.00 oils being high-SAPS and I gave at least one solid counterexample of that (Magnatec). You then kept making other false claims about 502.00 and ACEA A3/B3 and A3/B4. You really don't care about the true understanding of oils, actual meaning of TBN, etc. but insist on being a spec guy or read-the-back-of-the bottle guy.

You have been nothing but argumentative. You haven't brought anything positive to this discussion. You only argue for the sake of arguing and don't care about learning.


OMG, well, when you get drivers license you will figure out! There is a thing called reason. You know, you read several stuff and then make connections. I have not seen VW502.00 or any other High-SAPS oil or MidSAPS oil with 1.5% sulfated ash. nor I saw any VW504.00/507.00 that has sulfated ash higher then 0.8%, and usually the are around 0.5-0.7%.
I am not going to put dots for you. People go to school and need life experience to figure out that. One day you will figure it out.
But all that on a side. Problem is that you are not reading what other people write, you read what you want to read.
Maybe if someone pays me I would "translate" you those pdf's, but now, going to eat strawberries and brownie!

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

First off the responses on this topic have been vast and very appreciative. I Have learned allot from the links provided.

I realize 502 is for the US market amongst others due to our fuel. VW Didn't recommend 504 here due to their own OCI that is "free" so to be cost affective measure.

Honestly I have never really been into the whole EDI thing I know shame on me for wasting money.

I realize that 5w40 is not a 504 approved grade but the 30w's That are meet MB 229.51. M1 ESP 5w40 also meets MB 229.51 so I'm not sure if that particular oil is specific to MB or that VW just wants 504 to be somewhat energy conserving? To not havea 40w approved for 504.

So to 504 or not to 504 is the question? Higher grade base oil vs. Old school additives so to speak.

All I know is in Europe the intake valve deposit issue that is known in the USA DOES NOT EXISTS in Europe. So is it their gas? Their oil specs or both that prevents this? All I know is those valves look TERRIBLE even after 30k miles. Let alone 60k or more which is right around warranty expiration time.

I am interested in 504 for that sole purpose in hopes that it will help with the valves. I just don't want to sacrafice longevity of the engine in the process as silly add that sounds.

Jeff

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
First off the responses on this topic have been vast and very appreciative. I Have learned allot from the links provided.

I realize 502 is for the US market amongst others due to our fuel. VW Didn't recommend 504 here due to their own OCI that is "free" so to be cost affective measure.

Honestly I have never really been into the whole EDI thing I know shame on me for wasting money.

I realize that 5w40 is not a 504 approved grade but the 30w's That are meet MB 229.51. M1 ESP 5w40 also meets MB 229.51 so I'm not sure if that particular oil is specific to MB or that VW just wants 504 to be somewhat energy conserving? To not havea 40w approved for 504.

So to 504 or not to 504 is the question? Higher grade base oil vs. Old school additives so to speak.

All I know is in Europe the intake valve deposit issue that is known in the USA DOES NOT EXISTS in Europe. So is it their gas? Their oil specs or both that prevents this? All I know is those valves look TERRIBLE even after 30k miles. Let alone 60k or more which is right around warranty expiration time.

I am interested in 504 for that sole purpose in hopes that it will help with the valves. I just don't want to sacrafice longevity of the engine in the process as silly add that sounds.

Jeff


I would say M1 5W40 ESP is unique to MB. Now considering it is MB 229.51, you could use it with no issues in GTI.
In Europe you have also stratified injection.
I have M1 5W30 ESP in a Tiguan now. I will do UOA at 3K, so you will know the answer! If TBN stays in reasonable values, I will extend to 5K.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

If the 504 holds up in CO it should definitely hold up on CA.

So would Redline Euro 5w30 be the best of both worlds on the presented debate? Would have low NOACK meaning high quality base oils AND low saps. Granted it doesn't carry OEM approval but just for argument sake.

Jeff